The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

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Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by jimwalton » Fri May 04, 2018 11:07 pm

Then you've missed my thesis repeatedly, no matter how many different ways I try to describe it. Let me try once more: The Torah is how to maintain access to God's presence and preserve His favor so that God's identity, character, and values would be well-reflected by the people. It is defining cosmic order. It is a way of life. It is an expression of the covenant.

IT IS NOT A LEGAL CODE.
IT IS NOT A LAW OF MORALS or CONSTRUCTING A CODE OF MORALITY.
IT IS NOT LEGISLATION.
IT IS NOT A LIST OF RULES.

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by Kingston » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:01 pm

> As I wrote, "[The Torah] was God's directions to His people

Indeed - The Law.

> about how to maintain access to His presence and preserve His favor so that God's identity would be well reflected by the people, to shape them into a society that would reflect God's character and values in the midst of other nations.

Which is the function of The Law

I'm sorry but all you've done is repeatedly demonstrate the point which I've made.

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by jimwalton » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:29 pm

As I wrote, "[The Torah] was God's directions to His people about how to maintain access to His presence and preserve His favor so that God's identity would be well reflected by the people, to shape them into a society that would reflect God's character and values in the midst of other nations. The Torah is ... the foundation for God's presence, giving the Israelites guidelines for how to live in the presence of a holy God."

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by Kingston » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:27 pm

> As I wrote, "The most significant function of the Torah was not as a judicial tool for society, but as a revelation of the character of God."

And what IS the Torah?

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by jimwalton » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:12 pm

> Sure, but legislation refers to the actual law enacted by a legislative body.

You seem to be assuming that the Torah was meant to be legislation, but what I'm telling you is that it was not. It was meant to be an expression of covenant to preserve the presence of God, not legislation to be regarded as a legal system.

> Music: Only because they're so ingrained that you don't need to think about the rules.

That's exactly right, because the point is never "the rules" but rather the music. The substrate of theory is always undergirding the product, but the purpose and goal is always art, not legislation. The Torah guides not by legislation but by conformity to the presence of God. It shapes them into a society not defined by the list of rules but rather by God's characters and values. As I wrote, "The most significant function of the Torah was not as a judicial tool for society, but as a revelation of the character of God."

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by Kinqston » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:08 pm

> Torah doesn't mean "law" in the sense of legislation, but rather "guidance." The Torah guides Israel by setting the laws and commandments within the framework of a story. As they read the stories, they learn about the God behind the stories.

Sure, but legislation refers to the actual law enacted by a legislative body. In this case you have the law handed down by God and they there is a covenantal agreement with regards that same actual law.

Yes, The Torah guides Israel by setting the laws and commandments within the framework of a story but it still sets the laws and commandments; which make up the beginnings of the legislative framework of the nation.

> The exercises, rules, and theory take a very distant back seat when I am making MUSIC.

Only because they're so ingrained that you don't need to think about the rules.

You're still dealing with the basic fundamental rules of music (and maths) without even thinking about it.

The laws of modality, tonality, polyphony, how you put together chords, even how you generate keys, still adhere to those fundamental rules of music, no matter how you feel about it.

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by jimwalton » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:36 pm

Torah doesn't mean "law" in the sense of legislation, but rather "guidance." The Torah guides Israel by setting the laws and commandments within the framework of a story. As they read the stories, they learn about the God behind the stories. Its guidelines shape them into a society (judges, kings, penalties, regulations) that will reflect God's character and values. It was a way to have personal integrity, economic and social justice, and compassion for the others in the community. The most significant function of the Torah was not as a judicial tool for society, but as a revelation of the character of God.

With the Law, God wanted to tell His people that they should have certain attitudes. He did that by commanding actions (penalties and regulations) with the idea that they would see the attitudes behind them.

> Paul literally uses the words "schoolmaster" and "justification" which means a lining up.

Yes, he does. (Well, I don't know about justification. In Romans and Galatians he says we're *not* justified by law. Maybe you'll have to give me a text if I'm not thinking where you are thinking.) In Gal. 3.24-25 he speaks of the law as a schoolmaster, or tutor—as you mentioned. The word is παιδαγωγὸς, "overseer; guardian." We get our English word "pedagogy" from it. The Law kept watch over us.

> Law generally has at its heart, the regulation, protection and standardisation of society to produce order.

I'm a musician. I learn notes, theory, patterns, the rules of music, how to read, and technique. But when it comes right down to it, my lessons are so that I can PLAY. The exercises, rules, and theory take a very distant back seat when I am making MUSIC. They're always there, but it's not about the technicalities, it's about the art.

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by Kinqston » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:30 pm

> The Torah is not a legal system

It literally sets out how to appoint judges, kings, what kind of penalties and regulations are to be lived under.

> These legal lists are not provided so that people will conform their behavior to them,

Paul literally uses the words "schoolmaster" and "justification" which means a lining up.

Law generally has at its heart, the regulation, protection and standardisation of society to produce order.

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by jimwalton » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:55 pm

Of course the Bill of Rights would have been a foreign concept. You missed my whole point, as well as the point of the Torah. The Torah is designed to prevent a repeat of the Fall of Adam and Eve and the subsequent loss of the presence of God. The Law is not to Israel a law of morals on the grounds of human duty, but a means to fulfill the covenant and maintain the relationship of God via his presence. It's about how to be right with God, not how to live morally.

The Torah contains both ritual and societal responsibilities, all designed to define cosmic order and give shape to holiness. It was God's directions to His people about how to maintain access to His presence and preserve His favor so that God's identity would be well reflected by the people, to shape them into a society that would reflect God's character and values in the midst of other nations. The Torah is not a legal system, but the foundation for God's presence, giving the Israelites guidelines for how to live in the presence of a holy God.

The ancient The ancient law codes are generally not legislation, they are instead circumscribing the nature of cosmic order, particularly with regard to justice in society. These legal lists are not provided so that people will conform their behavior to them, but so that scholars, elders, judges, and magistrates might become informed in the wisdom/knowledge they are called to exercise by virtue of their positions. It was a way of life, not a list of rules. When justice is maintained in society, the resulting order brings legitimation to the kinds and order in the cosmos (including society as well as nature), which the gods desire. The result of all this is that society will conform to the decrees of the gods that are used to maintain order. This creates an ordered society that conforms to their perceptions of morality. The texts do not construct morality, however, they operate according to the moral sense the society already has.

Re: The US Legal system and the 10 commandments

Post by Kingston » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:55 pm

> They're so general that they're really not enforceable through any judicial system. They're really more like a Bill of Rights. What is being protected is not one's own rights, but the rights of the other person, to preserve the integrity of the community of God.

Nope.

The Torah literally sets out the judicial system which they fit into.

A Bill of Rights would have been a foreign concept to anyone even at common law until at least Magna Carta. The Bill of Rights Act 1689 is about partly limiting the Crown.

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