by jimwalton » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:46 am
> Again, Jesus promised that nothing will be impossible to those who believe, even with tiniest of faiths (Matt. 17:20).
Certainly you understand things like literary genres (hyperbole, simile, metaphor, parable, etc.) and also understand that people speak in figures of speech, right? Look at John 16.25, where Jesus tells them that he teaches using figures of speech. It's right there in black and white. So, Jesus said, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." When we understand what Jesus is saying, we take that as a figure of speech, not literally. When he says you're supposed to hate your parents, while in other places endorsing the command to honor your father and your mother, it doesn't take too much brains to figure out that the "hate" sentence is a figure of speech to describe something he's teaching. So also with Matthew 17.20. C'mon. This doesn't take a Ph.D. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we are in charge of God, that God is our slave to do our bidding, and therefore we'll get whatever we ask for. These are figures of speech, not a promise. He is teaching them about the nature of faith, not about their personal power. No one is going to say a prayer and have Mt. Everest shift a mile or so. It's not what Jesus is saying. Moving mountains is proverbial for overcoming great difficulties. Mustard seeds are proverbial of smallness, as we would say, "as small as a mouse." It's a figure of speech. Like electricity, it’s not the size of the connection that matters, but the quality of it. Even the smallest connection, properly set, will make electricity flow with power, and a large one, corroded, will stop it cold. Jesus is speaking figuratively, and also parabolically. The "mountain" is our obstacles. "Removing mountains" was a Jewish figure of speech for that which was incomparably difficult.
> Even if his promise is hyperbole, you should still have greater abilities with his help vs without his help.
Oh, we certainly do. We do have greater abilities, but when you read the entire New Testament, those abilities are inner qualities, not the ability to do tricks (such as Eph. 3.14-21; Eph. 1.17-20).
> Jn. 14.12
Jesus's "going" is a key theme in John, especially chapters 13-17. What he means by it is his death. His "going" is his greatest work. He says the works they will do will be "because I am going," in other words, he's talking about the work of salvation in them and what they will accomplish because of it. He's not talking about miracles or tricks, but about the power of their local ministry. To see it fulfilled just look at Peter's sermon at Pentecost where 3,000 were saved (something Jesus never did), or Paul's missionary tours bringing thousands of Gentiles to Christ (something Jesus never did). Jesus's words are an invitation to radical faith and to participate in the mighty works of conversion to salvation.
Jesus is giving the gospel. He is advancing the kingdom. He is reclaiming the earth as rightfully his. He has said many times that the work he did was the Father's work, and that he was passing that work on to us. When Jesus gives this promise, he was saying, “I’m giving you a job to do, my Father and I want the gospel to go forth, and I promise you’ll have everything you need to get that job done, and you’ll do an even better job than me.” Jesus ministered for 3 years, and at the end, he had a handful of disciples who half-believed in him. After Jesus went to heaven and the Holy Spirit came down, Peter preaches one sermon and thousands believe. That’s the greater thing God wants us to do. Look at what the Church has accomplished through history: heroism, devotion, gallantry, endurance, and achievement. Christ stamped his nature on billions who have changed the world. Together we will continue to accomplish the work started by Jesus.
> But I'm guessing there will be another excuse, which actually proves my point. All of Jesus' promises that apply to here and now are worthless.
Not at all. Rather, we have to understand what Jesus meant by them, and it's not just a superficial interpretation.
> Is he required to save everyone who believes in him? Then he is required to do tricks as promised too.
Yes, he obligated himself to save everyone who believes in him. It seems that you don't want to take the time or make the effort to understand what Jesus was saying, but only to "name it and claim it," which is not legitimate exegesis. We read the context to understand, we analyze what Jesus said, and we observe what happened.
You may think, "Well, that's how they or anyone would have understood it." That still doesn't make it so. Jesus said "Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up again." They were sure he was talking about Herod's temple, but John explains he was talking about his body. They only understood that much later, and not at the time. Jesus preached in John 6 that people should eat his flesh and drink his blood. The people were disgusted because they didn't want to take a bite. It's only later, after his death and resurrection, that they understood. Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. Nic said, "Back in my mother's womb?" No, just because that's how he understood it doesn't mean that's what Jesus meant. Jesus explains he's talking about being born of the Spirit. The Gospel of John (as well as the other Gospels) is FULL of this stuff: figurative, parabolic speech. It was Jesus's way of speaking, and we have to read it that way. We understand later what he really meant by it. We never see the disciples praying to move a literal mountain. We never see them trying to walk on water. C'mon. We have to interpret carefully and correctly.
> Again, Jesus promised that nothing will be impossible to those who believe, even with tiniest of faiths (Matt. 17:20).
Certainly you understand things like literary genres (hyperbole, simile, metaphor, parable, etc.) and also understand that people speak in figures of speech, right? Look at John 16.25, where Jesus tells them that he teaches using figures of speech. It's right there in black and white. So, Jesus said, "It's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." When we understand what Jesus is saying, we take that as a figure of speech, not literally. When he says you're supposed to hate your parents, while in other places endorsing the command to honor your father and your mother, it doesn't take too much brains to figure out that the "hate" sentence is a figure of speech to describe something he's teaching. So also with Matthew 17.20. C'mon. This doesn't take a Ph.D. Nowhere does the Bible teach that we are in charge of God, that God is our slave to do our bidding, and therefore we'll get whatever we ask for. These are figures of speech, not a promise. He is teaching them about the nature of faith, not about their personal power. No one is going to say a prayer and have Mt. Everest shift a mile or so. It's not what Jesus is saying. Moving mountains is proverbial for overcoming great difficulties. Mustard seeds are proverbial of smallness, as we would say, "as small as a mouse." It's a figure of speech. Like electricity, it’s not the size of the connection that matters, but the quality of it. Even the smallest connection, properly set, will make electricity flow with power, and a large one, corroded, will stop it cold. Jesus is speaking figuratively, and also parabolically. The "mountain" is our obstacles. "Removing mountains" was a Jewish figure of speech for that which was incomparably difficult.
> Even if his promise is hyperbole, you should still have greater abilities with his help vs without his help.
Oh, we certainly do. We do have greater abilities, but when you read the entire New Testament, those abilities are inner qualities, not the ability to do tricks (such as Eph. 3.14-21; Eph. 1.17-20).
> Jn. 14.12
Jesus's "going" is a key theme in John, especially chapters 13-17. What he means by it is his death. His "going" is his greatest work. He says the works they will do will be "because I am going," in other words, he's talking about the work of salvation in them and what they will accomplish because of it. He's not talking about miracles or tricks, but about the power of their local ministry. To see it fulfilled just look at Peter's sermon at Pentecost where 3,000 were saved (something Jesus never did), or Paul's missionary tours bringing thousands of Gentiles to Christ (something Jesus never did). Jesus's words are an invitation to radical faith and to participate in the mighty works of conversion to salvation.
Jesus is giving the gospel. He is advancing the kingdom. He is reclaiming the earth as rightfully his. He has said many times that the work he did was the Father's work, and that he was passing that work on to us. When Jesus gives this promise, he was saying, “I’m giving you a job to do, my Father and I want the gospel to go forth, and I promise you’ll have everything you need to get that job done, and you’ll do an even better job than me.” Jesus ministered for 3 years, and at the end, he had a handful of disciples who half-believed in him. After Jesus went to heaven and the Holy Spirit came down, Peter preaches one sermon and thousands believe. That’s the greater thing God wants us to do. Look at what the Church has accomplished through history: heroism, devotion, gallantry, endurance, and achievement. Christ stamped his nature on billions who have changed the world. Together we will continue to accomplish the work started by Jesus.
> But I'm guessing there will be another excuse, which actually proves my point. All of Jesus' promises that apply to here and now are worthless.
Not at all. Rather, we have to understand what Jesus meant by them, and it's not just a superficial interpretation.
> Is he required to save everyone who believes in him? Then he is required to do tricks as promised too.
Yes, he obligated himself to save everyone who believes in him. It seems that you don't want to take the time or make the effort to understand what Jesus was saying, but only to "name it and claim it," which is not legitimate exegesis. We read the context to understand, we analyze what Jesus said, and we observe what happened.
You may think, "Well, that's how they or anyone would have understood it." That still doesn't make it so. Jesus said "Destroy this temple, and in 3 days I will raise it up again." They were sure he was talking about Herod's temple, but John explains he was talking about his body. They only understood that much later, and not at the time. Jesus preached in John 6 that people should eat his flesh and drink his blood. The people were disgusted because they didn't want to take a bite. It's only later, after his death and resurrection, that they understood. Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. Nic said, "Back in my mother's womb?" No, just because that's how he understood it doesn't mean that's what Jesus meant. Jesus explains he's talking about being born of the Spirit. The Gospel of John (as well as the other Gospels) is FULL of this stuff: figurative, parabolic speech. It was Jesus's way of speaking, and we have to read it that way. We understand later what he really meant by it. We never see the disciples praying to move a literal mountain. We never see them trying to walk on water. C'mon. We have to interpret carefully and correctly.