Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

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Expand view Topic review: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by jimwalton » Thu May 02, 2019 8:54 pm

Wow, the conversation has taken a sudden turn from killing gays to veganism. I'll say off the top that the Bible neither teaches (requires) veganism nor says there's anything wrong with it. It's a choice we all get to make.

> Gen. 1.30

Thomas Aquinas, along with many believers through the millennia, have thought it unreasonable to assume that this verse means there were no carnivores. There would not have been any changes in the nature of animals pre- and post-fall. Nor are there any biblical texts indicating such a change in nature (that would have involved sudden significant biological and physiological changes). The doctrine of creation emphasizes continuity rather than change in creation’s functional integrity. This text does not rule out carnivorous behavior among animals. Genesis 1 draws a distinction between domesticated and undomesticated animals, with Gn. 1.24 distinguishing between livestock, crawling things, and wild beasts. Furthermore, when God calls the sea and soil to bring forth living creatures (Gn. 1.20-25), there are no dietary restrictions mentioned. To say that this verse restricts the diets of all creatures to herbivory goes beyond what Genesis 1 claims. In addition, God’s great creation discourse in Job describes predatory behavior by animals as if it has always been part of the normal workings of God’s creation and that God is involved in this.

> Dan. 1

In Dan. 1.5, the term used is *patbag*. It refers to food portions sent by the king to friends of the crown. There is no reason to think of it as a meat dish. When later Greeks refer to descriptions of this fare in the Persian literature they have available to them, it is identified as a baked bread product made of barley and wheat, accompanied by wine. Daniel was not insisting on veganism, or even vegetarianism.

There have been extensive discussions and a variety of suggestions regarding the reasons why Daniel and his friends refused the king’s food. Most work on the assumption that the contrast is between meat and vegetables, as you have assumed. It is true that sharing the king’s food implied some level of allegiance to the king, but that would hold no matter what the young men ate. Jewish dietary laws (kosher) would likely have rendered food unclean, but improper storage or preparation could render other food unclean as well. Furthermore, the Jewish dietary laws did not prohibit wine. The finest meats were undoubtedly supplied to the palace from the temples where they had been offered before idols (and the wine poured out in libations before the gods), but any food could easily have come through the same route. The decision certainly has nothing to do with vegetarianism or avoidance of rich foods for nutritional purposes (see Dan. 10:3). There are numerous examples in intertestamental literature of Jews seeing the necessity of refraining from the food served by Gentiles (Tobit, Judith, Jubilees). It is not so much something in the food that defiles as much as it is the total program of assimilation. At this point the Babylonian government is exercising control over every aspect of their lives. They have little means to resist the forces of assimilation that are controlling them. They seize on one of the few areas where they can still exercise choice, as an opportunity to preserve their distinct identity.

> Isa. 65.25

This verse describes the pacification of harmful nature, not that they will become herbivores. It's symbolic language. These predators symbolize all the devouring, ravening, poisonous aspects or our world, inside and outside human nature.

> Job 12.7

The verse has nothing to do with diet. It rather has to do with how obvious the hand of God is (Job 12.9-10).

> Prov. 12.10

This verse pertains to our responsibility to care for animals. God did not create the world and other creatures strictly for human use. The concept of dominion implies responsibility and caretaking. God has given us animals for food (Gn. 9.3). But we are restricted from being cruel.

> Ps. 147.9

This verse has nothing to do with any particular diet, but instead with God's providential care over creation.

> Hosea 2.18

The verse pertains to God's covenant with his people that expands to include creation. It doesn't have anything to do with dietary requirements. In the Day of the Lord (the end time), God's covenant of peace will extend to all of creation. It's a picture of restoration and peace, not what people will eat.

> Jer. 12.4

This verse is a description of judgment and the cynical thinking that will ensue. If God judges the people by restraining His hand of protection, they will find themselves subject to all sorts of problems. Here in Jeremiah, God has hidden his face (evident from the drought and famine), but the evildoers are convinced that God will not “see their end” (same phrase as in Deuteronomy), because they are determined to survive on their own.

> Luke 12.6

Again, this is a verse about God's providential care, not anything dietary. While sparrows may be "worthless" to humans in the grand scheme of things, to God they are as important as anything else. But Jesus uses the saying to show how important we are to God.

> Ps. 36.6

Another verse showing God's sovereign care over creation. This has nothing to do with diet.

> Matthew 5.7

Mercy is an attitude and action toward those who suffer—those who renounce their own dignity to take on the distress, humiliation, and sin of others.

In other words, veganism is neither forbidden nor required, neither encouraged nor discouraged. We can eat what we want as long as we are not cruel, we are being responsible in our oversight over and care of nature, and we treat animals with dignity instead of apathy.

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by Black & Green » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:02 am

well yeah thanks for your input. especially the last part.. Jesus is a rolemodel. but many fail..and forget. and many break the commandments, especially the 7th one: to not steal. well i see alot of people stealing opportunities, liberty, and peace from others. the 7th commandment i see is broken every day! also when it comes to their diet: here are the passages talking about veganism in the bible.

    * “And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” —Genesis 1:30
    * “But Daniel resolved that he would not defile himself with the royal rations of food and wine … Then Daniel asked … ‘Let us be given vegetables to eat and water to drink.’ … At the end of ten days it was observed that they appeared better and fatter than all the young men who had been eating the royal rations.” —Daniel 1:8, 11–12, 15
    * “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together; the lion shall eat straw like an ox; but the serpent—its food shall be dust! They shall not hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain.” —Isaiah 65:25
    * “But ask the animals, and they will teach you; the birds of the air, and they will tell you.” —Job 12:7
    * “The righteous know the needs of their animals, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.” —Proverbs 12:10
    * “He gives to the animals their food, and to the young ravens when they cry.” —Psalms 147:9
    * “I will make for you a covenant on that day with the wild animals, the birds of the air, and the creeping things of the ground; and I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land; and I will make you lie down in safety.” —Hosea 2:18
    * “How long will the land mourn, and the grass of every field wither? For the wickedness of those who live in it the animals and the birds are swept away, and because people said, ‘He is blind to our ways.'” —Jeremiah 12:4
    * “Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten in God’s sight.” —Luke 12:6
    * “Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O Lord.” —Psalms 36:6
    * “Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.” —Matthew 5:7

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by jimwalton » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:49 pm

> dont confuse sexuality with sexual orientation. ... language contributes to misinterpretations

I agree. I didn't mean to do that if I did.

> i believe in Jesus. I dont believe he was white though

You're right again. The genealogy of Jesus makes clear that he was from the Middle East, with ancestors who were Mesopotamian (Abraham), Canaanite (Rahab), and Moabite (Ruth), all Middle-Eastern. It is possible that also that he has some African in his heritage, since Solomon had many wives, and we don't know the heritage of all of them. There is also the possibility of other interracial marriages in the long line of his ancestry.

Essentially, Jesus was of mixed Near-Eastern heritage. There's every reason to believe he had normal skin tones for that part of the world (medium to dark brown), dark brown eyes, and dark brown hair. He had a beard and, being a lawful Jew, he most likely had payot.

We can just about guarantee he wasn't white.

> like the racist colonialist Europeans made him out to be.

Yeah, it was part of the art world of European culture to portray people like the dominant population of Europe at the time.

> i personally think religion is an antiquated worldview thats in contradiction with evolution and civilization

Now, I believe in the Bible, Jesus, and evolution. I'm convinced the Bible tells us that God created, but it doesn't tell us what processes He used or how long it took. I believe God used the evolutionary process to bring about the world we see. I don't see any contradiction between the Bible and science, or between the Bible and civilized people.

> Religion is compatible with primitivistic lifestyles.

Christianity is amazing in that it is just as "at home" with the scholar as the peasant, the intellectual and the primitive, the mind and emotions, the adult and the child, any culture, any language, any gender, any socio-economic status.

> this is another reason why i say all religious folks are hypocrites.

I see hypocrisy in every corner of humanity: business, politics, science, academia, religion, education, and philosophy. It's a human cancer. Religious people are supposedly working hard to not be hypocrites, but too many are, and hence the bad reputation. Jesus was no hypocrite, though, and it's to Him we look as our model.

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by Black & Green » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:39 pm

yeah i agree with you. just one thing though.. dont confuse sexuality with sexual orientation. sexuality is related with libido and a persons sex life, regardless of which gender they are attracted to. sexual orientation involves a certain type of love thats different from other types.. its romanticism.. its marriage(figuratively and or literally). just with the word sex.. people judge because they only think of sex with no strings attached(not that theres anything wrong with sex in itself)..sigh.. what im tryingg to say is that language contributes to misinterpretations since we all have different perspectives of the world. its hard sometimes to put something in a way were people can see it objectively.

im not religious, but i believe in Jesus. I dont believe he was white though.. like the racist colonialist Europeans made him out to be. I agree more people should strive to be like him. i personally think religion is an antiquated worldview thats in contradiction with evolution and civilization. Religion is compatible with primitivistic lifestyles. this is another reason why i say all religious folks are hypocrites. for example islam is the predominat religion in the UAE where Dubai is! LOL. i cant help but laugh at their hypocrisy.

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by jimwalton » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:21 pm

Yeah. I think it's sort of sad that some people seem to think that our sexuality defines all of life, and that sexuality is the only thing that matters in life or is important. To me, there is so much more to look at, so much more to think about, and even so much more that defines us. I mean, duh, sexuality is important, but it's not everything.

> lack awareness of what it means to be a minority

Y'know, except in rare cases, it's just impossible to really put yourself in someone else's shoes and walk around in them. I mean, even if I were able to do that, I have all of my life experiences and perspectives that have been framed by my past, and there's no way to not think or see according to those experiences. There just isn't.

At the same time, we need to train ourselves to be aware of other people, and what they've had to go through. Our awareness, hopefully, can help us to be compassionate, sympathetic, empathetic, and tolerant. And if we all do our best to think of others rather than ourselves, to speak and act with compassion rather than judgment, to be aware of others' experiences and sensitivities, we really can learn to get along and build each other up a whole lot better than we are.

We seem to default, instead, to various positions of fear, self-centeredness, and apathy (and in the worst cases, racism, sexual deprecation, verbal abuse, and all of those horrible behaviors). Ya gotta wonder what makes people so mean lately. We see it on the news every night. People attacking others, punching, shooting, yelling—it's awful, isn't it?

Jesus talked about living together in peace. He was a very tolerant guy (except for religious hypocrites). He talked about showing kindness and compassion, forgiveness and not judging each other. Why can't we all just follow Jesus?

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by Black & Green » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:10 pm

no worries im not offended im just pissed in general (nothing personal). the life i live isnt defined by only my romantic life. theres alot of things that make up a lifestyle. theres more predominance of romanticism in some peoples life wether they are homosex bi heterosex pansex etcetc. people have different lifestyles but it doesnt have anything to do with their romantic nor sex experiences (unless someone is a prostitute for example). I just want to bring awareness because its something alot of people ,especially heteros ,lack awareness of what it means to be a minority

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by jimwalton » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:15 pm

Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't trying to be offensive. I didn't claim or suggest that you chose to be gay (a lifestyle choice), but only that that was the life you were living. That's all I meant by it. I apologize if something I said offended you.

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by Black & Green » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:13 pm

how do i live? i live being human. my love and or sex (which is nonexistant) life doesnt determine my lifestyle. this corrupt system determines my, yours, and everybody elses lifestyle. and i didnt choose to be gay also to clarifiy. why would i choose to be a minority? some people believe that idk why. thats like rejecting a trillion dollars someone offers you. i dont have heterosexual privilige. idk why people think a sexual orientation (which not everyone is sexual fyi) is a lifestyle choice. that doesnt make sense!

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by jimwalton » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:09 pm

I called it a lifestyle because I assumed it was the style of your life. The term doesn't require that I'm saying you chose it or didn't, but only that being gay is how you live. That's all I meant by it. If you want to talk further, we can. Otherwise, we'll perhaps talk again another time.

Re: Why haven't I been killed yet since I'm gay?

Post by Black & Green » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:07 pm

my family doesnt love me lol. theyre just religious hypocrites (like most people worldwide who love to CHERRY PICK )who claim to be religious. anyways thanks for the insight. youre one of the few who actually read the bible. and btw being gay is not a lifestyle. i dont understand why people think that. how does my romantic and physical attraction to a certain gender, make it a lifestyle?