by jimwalton » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:41 pm
So many questions. Glad to answer, but I hope you understand I have to be brief rather than thorough because of the limitations of the forum.
> How do you determine the intent of an author who has been dead for 500-2000 years?
By studying the context, grammar, and vocabulary, by studying the stated purposes of the book, by studying the repetitive phrases in the book that shows us the author's structural ideas, and by studying the cultural context of the writing so we can understand the author's worldview. All history writing is rhetorically shaped, and all Biblical writing is theologically shaped. They tell the story out of their worldview.
> Again, how do you determine what was hyperbole and what was not hyperbole?
We determine that an idea is hyperbolic when it is out of keeping with literal possibilities. As far as a global flood, (1) this is out of keeping with how God does things, (2) it is not his manner of miracle, this one requiring a stream of dozens to make the flood a possibility, (3) it is not in keeping with the way God judges, and (4) it is not in keeping with wooden boat construction possibilities, and (5) it is not in keeping with the geological record. The conclusion of hyperbole is fairly straightforward.
> And what is that purpose?
The purpose of the creation account? To begin the story of the covenant. Though God created everything just right, sin drew people away from God—so much that they no longer had an accurate idea of what God was like. This was why God decided to make a covenant—to give an accurate picture of what he was like. The blessings, order, and functionality of chapters 1-2 quickly turned to corruption (sin) and a distorted picture of God (the Tower of Babel, chapter 11). The covenant represents God’s initiative, and it intends to correct the Babel Problem by providing a means by which God can reveal himself to the world through Abraham and his family. The covenant in the OT addresses the Babel Problem, while the covenant in the NT addresses the Eden Problem
In the biblical world, the most important aspect of creation was that God brought order from disorder, and the order that was brought forth from chaos had to be maintained day by day, moment by moment. In one sense, God made the world for us, but in another, he made the world for himself. The cosmos was created to be his temple, and people were placed in the garden to serve, but not as slaves. Since the garden was sacred space, serving in the garden was similar to serving in the temple—it involved caring for sacred space.
> Does the bible tell us the purpose behind it all?
Sure. It's all there.
> If Adam was created first, out of clay, and then Eve was created our of Adams rib, in what way are they equals?
When the text says humankind was created out of clay, it's not talking about the material manufacture of an individual. In Genesis 2.7, the Hebrew reads "the man," indicating it's speaking of humanity, not an individual. And "the dust of the ground" is a figure of speech about humanity's mortality (Gn. 3.19; Ps. 103.14). It's a statement about our nature. By saying that humanity is made of dust, it is telling us that we are not eternal, and that's the reason for a tree of life. In Adam we are all created mortal.
As far as the "rib," nowhere in the Bible does that term refer to an anatomical part. God is communicating to Adam about the nature and identity of womankind, that she is his counterpart, his ontological equal. She is "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh." They share a kinship relationship of equality, just as is stated in Gen. 1.26-28.
> How did you determine that the authors intent was hyperbole?
Already addressed.
> Whoever wrote this word down either was not using it correctly, or you are not interpreting it correctly. How did you determine the author didn't mean "all" when the word they used was "all"?
It was in my post: Here's what I wrote:
"In Gn. 41.57 (same book, same author), we read that "all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph because the famine was severe in all the world." Was Brazil experiencing famine? Did the Australians come to Joseph? No. "All" means the countries of the immediate vicinity in the ancient Near East.
"Also, Deut. 2.25 (same author): "I will put the...fear of you on all the nations under heaven." Did that include the Mayans? The people of Madagascar? I don't think anyone would argue that this refers to more than the nations of Canaan, and perhaps a few others.
"There are plenty of other references like this throughout the Bible (Acts 17.6; 19.35; 24.5; Rom. 1.8). We have to give serious consideration that quite possibly "all" doesn't mean "global"."
> If it is strait forward, why is there disagreement?
There's always disagreement. Some people still claim there was no Holocaust. Some people claim the earth is flat. Some people claim William Shakespeare didn't exist. And Ken Ham claims the earth is only 6,000 years old. Go figure. Even straightforward stuff can get warped.
> That contradicts what you said above when you say: he text portrays them as archetypes (not allegories or metaphors) of all humans.
I also said, "it's possible to believe in the accuracy of the Adam & Eve story as well as their historicity if we see Genesis 1 & 2 as being about function rather than material creation." I didn't contradict myself. They were literal, historical beings who function as representatives (archetypes) of humanity.
> An archetype of all humans is not the same thing as a historical person.
Of course it can be. Adolf Hitler is clearly an archetype of evil.
So many questions. Glad to answer, but I hope you understand I have to be brief rather than thorough because of the limitations of the forum.
> How do you determine the intent of an author who has been dead for 500-2000 years?
By studying the context, grammar, and vocabulary, by studying the stated purposes of the book, by studying the repetitive phrases in the book that shows us the author's structural ideas, and by studying the cultural context of the writing so we can understand the author's worldview. All history writing is rhetorically shaped, and all Biblical writing is theologically shaped. They tell the story out of their worldview.
> Again, how do you determine what was hyperbole and what was not hyperbole?
We determine that an idea is hyperbolic when it is out of keeping with literal possibilities. As far as a global flood, (1) this is out of keeping with how God does things, (2) it is not his manner of miracle, this one requiring a stream of dozens to make the flood a possibility, (3) it is not in keeping with the way God judges, and (4) it is not in keeping with wooden boat construction possibilities, and (5) it is not in keeping with the geological record. The conclusion of hyperbole is fairly straightforward.
> And what is that purpose?
The purpose of the creation account? To begin the story of the covenant. Though God created everything just right, sin drew people away from God—so much that they no longer had an accurate idea of what God was like. This was why God decided to make a covenant—to give an accurate picture of what he was like. The blessings, order, and functionality of chapters 1-2 quickly turned to corruption (sin) and a distorted picture of God (the Tower of Babel, chapter 11). The covenant represents God’s initiative, and it intends to correct the Babel Problem by providing a means by which God can reveal himself to the world through Abraham and his family. The covenant in the OT addresses the Babel Problem, while the covenant in the NT addresses the Eden Problem
In the biblical world, the most important aspect of creation was that God brought order from disorder, and the order that was brought forth from chaos had to be maintained day by day, moment by moment. In one sense, God made the world for us, but in another, he made the world for himself. The cosmos was created to be his temple, and people were placed in the garden to serve, but not as slaves. Since the garden was sacred space, serving in the garden was similar to serving in the temple—it involved caring for sacred space.
> Does the bible tell us the purpose behind it all?
Sure. It's all there.
> If Adam was created first, out of clay, and then Eve was created our of Adams rib, in what way are they equals?
When the text says humankind was created out of clay, it's not talking about the material manufacture of an individual. In Genesis 2.7, the Hebrew reads "the man," indicating it's speaking of humanity, not an individual. And "the dust of the ground" is a figure of speech about humanity's mortality (Gn. 3.19; Ps. 103.14). It's a statement about our nature. By saying that humanity is made of dust, it is telling us that we are not eternal, and that's the reason for a tree of life. In Adam we are all created mortal.
As far as the "rib," nowhere in the Bible does that term refer to an anatomical part. God is communicating to Adam about the nature and identity of womankind, that she is his counterpart, his ontological equal. She is "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh." They share a kinship relationship of equality, just as is stated in Gen. 1.26-28.
> How did you determine that the authors intent was hyperbole?
Already addressed.
> Whoever wrote this word down either was not using it correctly, or you are not interpreting it correctly. How did you determine the author didn't mean "all" when the word they used was "all"?
It was in my post: Here's what I wrote:
"In Gn. 41.57 (same book, same author), we read that "all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph because the famine was severe in all the world." Was Brazil experiencing famine? Did the Australians come to Joseph? No. "All" means the countries of the immediate vicinity in the ancient Near East.
"Also, Deut. 2.25 (same author): "I will put the...fear of you on all the nations under heaven." Did that include the Mayans? The people of Madagascar? I don't think anyone would argue that this refers to more than the nations of Canaan, and perhaps a few others.
"There are plenty of other references like this throughout the Bible (Acts 17.6; 19.35; 24.5; Rom. 1.8). We have to give serious consideration that quite possibly "all" doesn't mean "global"."
> If it is strait forward, why is there disagreement?
There's always disagreement. Some people still claim there was no Holocaust. Some people claim the earth is flat. Some people claim William Shakespeare didn't exist. And Ken Ham claims the earth is only 6,000 years old. Go figure. Even straightforward stuff can get warped.
> That contradicts what you said above when you say: he text portrays them as archetypes (not allegories or metaphors) of all humans.
I also said, "it's possible to believe in the accuracy of the Adam & Eve story as well as their historicity if we see Genesis 1 & 2 as being about function rather than material creation." I didn't contradict myself. They were literal, historical beings who function as representatives (archetypes) of humanity.
> An archetype of all humans is not the same thing as a historical person.
Of course it can be. Adolf Hitler is clearly an archetype of evil.