by jimwalton » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:14 pm
> Alright. I want to live and love independently from having to include some sort of conscious powerful being which is usually defined as "god" in any shape or form.
That's like saying I want to dive in the pool but I don't want to get wet. God is the source and substance of life. You can't have life apart from God. You want love independently from God, but God is love, and apart from him there is no love. The reason we have love during our lives is because of what we call "common grace." God has invested characteristics of Himself in all of life for the benefit and blessing of all: we all get sunshine and rain, we all have experiences of love, grace, and mercy, we all get to see beautiful things. We all benefit from the orderliness and regularity of creation. These are gifts from God that we all share in common. But now you want love apart from God. It doesn't exist. It's like saying you want light apart from the suns of the universe. Sorry, there isn't any. It's not being cruel, it's the reality of things.
> Your water analogy makes it clear that god is supposedly the universe and existence itself. To be able to do or be anything you have to be "inside" god. Otherwise existence itself is simply not possible.
To some extent this is true. God is creator of all things, and He has put some of his attributes in creation. He is the one who sustains the universe by his power (Heb. 1.3). He is over all, through all, and in all (Eph. 4.6). This isn't blackmail, it's reality. The cosmos is His. He made it, He sustains it, and He pervades it. He gave us the Bible to reveal these things to us. Creation reflects the attributes of God (order, regularity, predictability, beauty, purpose, personality, splendor, and greatness) far more than they reflect the natural processes of chance, accident, and selection via an unintelligent process. The message of the Bible is that you need to open your eyes and your mind to see the truth and accept it. It's there to see, and billions of people have found it.
> What this also means is that to reject existence itself is to become nonexistent. How is that a punishment? Why do you theists have to refer to it as a punishment? You only cause unnecessary stress towards people by doing this.
We only refer to it that way because the Bible does. Since we subscribe to the Bible because the evidences are compelling, then we subscribe to the Bible for its theology as well.
> I'm fine with living and loving beause I exist as part of the universe
You're living on what I would call "borrowed capital." You're taking theistic ideas and living by them, even though you have no foundation to do so if you don't subscribe to theism. For instance, if we're just an agglomeration of chemicals, then we're just that and nothing more. We can't talk of right and wrong or purpose or meaning, because we're just chemicals that came about through unintelligent processes. If we're just bio-chemicals that evolved, then personality, purpose, and morality just don't make sense. They're not part of the system.
But you want the life and love part without the One who gave it to you. You admit to the life and love part when naturalism gives you no such thing.
> Especially if it is claimed that he is all good.
As I mentioned previously, those who see him as not good have been deceived by lousy exegesis and interpretation of Scripture and haven't dug deeply enough to discern the truth. We can talk more as you wish.
> If he was simply indifferent and had nothing to do with us that would be fine.
Yeah, but that's impossible. Since He is personal and He is love, it would be contrary to His nature to be indifferent and aloof. God can't be self-contradictory, as nothing can. It's the reality of things.
> Alright. I want to live and love independently from having to include some sort of conscious powerful being which is usually defined as "god" in any shape or form.
That's like saying I want to dive in the pool but I don't want to get wet. God is the source and substance of life. You can't have life apart from God. You want love independently from God, but God is love, and apart from him there is no love. The reason we have love during our lives is because of what we call "common grace." God has invested characteristics of Himself in all of life for the benefit and blessing of all: we all get sunshine and rain, we all have experiences of love, grace, and mercy, we all get to see beautiful things. We all benefit from the orderliness and regularity of creation. These are gifts from God that we all share in common. But now you want love apart from God. It doesn't exist. It's like saying you want light apart from the suns of the universe. Sorry, there isn't any. It's not being cruel, it's the reality of things.
> Your water analogy makes it clear that god is supposedly the universe and existence itself. To be able to do or be anything you have to be "inside" god. Otherwise existence itself is simply not possible.
To some extent this is true. God is creator of all things, and He has put some of his attributes in creation. He is the one who sustains the universe by his power (Heb. 1.3). He is over all, through all, and in all (Eph. 4.6). This isn't blackmail, it's reality. The cosmos is His. He made it, He sustains it, and He pervades it. He gave us the Bible to reveal these things to us. Creation reflects the attributes of God (order, regularity, predictability, beauty, purpose, personality, splendor, and greatness) far more than they reflect the natural processes of chance, accident, and selection via an unintelligent process. The message of the Bible is that you need to open your eyes and your mind to see the truth and accept it. It's there to see, and billions of people have found it.
> What this also means is that to reject existence itself is to become nonexistent. How is that a punishment? Why do you theists have to refer to it as a punishment? You only cause unnecessary stress towards people by doing this.
We only refer to it that way because the Bible does. Since we subscribe to the Bible because the evidences are compelling, then we subscribe to the Bible for its theology as well.
> I'm fine with living and loving beause I exist as part of the universe
You're living on what I would call "borrowed capital." You're taking theistic ideas and living by them, even though you have no foundation to do so if you don't subscribe to theism. For instance, if we're just an agglomeration of chemicals, then we're just that and nothing more. We can't talk of right and wrong or purpose or meaning, because we're just chemicals that came about through unintelligent processes. If we're just bio-chemicals that evolved, then personality, purpose, and morality just don't make sense. They're not part of the system.
But you want the life and love part without the One who gave it to you. You admit to the life and love part when naturalism gives you no such thing.
> Especially if it is claimed that he is all good.
As I mentioned previously, those who see him as not good have been deceived by lousy exegesis and interpretation of Scripture and haven't dug deeply enough to discern the truth. We can talk more as you wish.
> If he was simply indifferent and had nothing to do with us that would be fine.
Yeah, but that's impossible. Since He is personal and He is love, it would be contrary to His nature to be indifferent and aloof. God can't be self-contradictory, as nothing can. It's the reality of things.