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[Incor]

That's interesting. As far as the quote from Hillary Clinton about "open borders," I share that dream. It doesn't imply a cessation of border control, though, it reads to me like a vision-casting of a utopia. Interesting how our personal lenses color the interpretation. Is there more that informs a picture of reduced immigration policy?

[jimwalton]

Nicholas Incorvaia I agree with you that it reads like a vision-casting of a utopia. The point at hand was that "Donald Trump wrongly say Hillary Clinton wants open borders," which, according to this quote, isn't as far from the truth as you implied. Her statement is certainly open to interpretation within its context, but she did say, "My dream is...open borders." I agree that contextually she was probably casting a vision and not advocating a policy.

[Mail Ox]

How about both—they don't have to be seen as mutually exclusive. They can be seeking asylum AND a better life. You certainly have read about the lifestyle, rape, and indiscriminate murder in some of the countries. Should we, as a Christian nation, be saying "no" to these people? Brings back the episode where we turned away a ship full of Jews from our shores. Won't we ever learn? Is this what God expects from His people? I don't think so.

[jimwalton]

Mail Ox, these issues are so deep. I'll start by saying I like what you said and basically agree with it. Life in some of these countries is abysmal, and the US SHOULD have a liberal immigration policy. But I still think we need border control and an immigration policy. I don't think we should just open our gates, tear down the customs checkpoints, and let all who wish to come come. Should we, as a Christian nation, be saying "no" to these people? To some of them, yes. First, I think we're wise to keep out the dangerous people and the people who would further denigrate the morals and safety of people here. Secondly, I think we can only absorb so many at a time without a great negative impact on us as a nation. So I think border control is essential to wellbeing. But since the US is complicit in the colonialization and economic abuse of many of the Central American peoples, we should have a liberal immigration policy and allow as many as makes sense.

But I think that's the purpose of the wall: border control. It's not, by my perceptions, xenophobia.

[Incor]

ISIS sympathizers are dangerous, but on the list of possible threats, they are not nearly as dangerous as others. I'm suggesting that the proportion of our response to that particular threat is hugely out of whack.

[jimwalton]

Incor, so then maybe here is the sensible approach: do everything possible to keep dangerous ISIS sympathizers out, but also deal with the potentially more dangerous populations already inside our borders such as right-wing and left-wing extremists. It doesn't have to be either/or; it should be both/and. My interpretation of Trump's words were safety and watchfulness, not xenophobia. So we need to be more thorough with Muslim immigrations because that is the people group from which most ISIS terrorists come. And we need to be as watchful as possible of the violent segments already in America, like the extremists from both ends whose goal is to attack and destroy.

[Beall]

An interesting article for anyone who considers themself a Christian... "These presidential orders, which will refuse help to many of the world’s most vulnerable individuals, are what many Christians voted for. This is the fruit of their political labor, but it’s not the Fruit of the Spirit. In fact, love, joy, peace, happiness, and self-control are notably absent from the current administration."

https://sojo.net/articles/american-christianity-has-failed

[Den Bren]

But we need to be smart too. I didn't just let anybody watch my son when he was little, because I am a Christian and maybe someone needed the money, or dinner or whatever. I interviewed people, got recommendations, met with them to see what they would do in certain situations. I made sure their intent was good towards him. We need to do that for our people. Make sure they will do good toward our people. A wall will thwart them. I know a border control agent who was at the Mexican border and he said a wall would definitely help. Also, my son flew missons out of AZ on the border, same thing. They come over here in droves. Why shouldn't they have to follow the same process as my ex-fiancee from Istanbul, Turkey? We couldn't get married because of his visa and he was a retired Navy ship captain who was called back. He could have stayed here. No one would have ever figured it out, but he was to honest. So back he went and has only been able to visit once since then. (Almost 20 years ago)

[Incor]

I don't believe that a model who married a billionaire gives that billionaire any insight into the struggle or perspective of the millions of immigrants who are part of the American fabric. No. The comparison is not even close. A Mexican migrant worker and a Russian model are a million miles apart.

[jimwalton]

I agree (your whole statement starting with "I don't believe that a model..." and ending with "are a million miles apart") wholeheartedly. The point of the conversation, however is not identification with the downtrodden, but xenophobia. And frankly, it seems to me that just as Hillary's quote about open borders needs to be properly interpreted (she was probably casting a vision, not suggesting policy), Trump's statements about registering Muslims and tightening our borders are not expressions of xenophobia but of safety. I think, the more I examine it, that he has been slanderously slurred with this untrue label to discredit him, when if you really examine his life (married to foreign wives [Ivana & Melania], doing multi-billions of dollars of business in foreign countries with foreigners) and give his words the weight he intended by them, we discover that (1) he speaks carelessly, (2) he's not xenophobic at all, and (3) his true interest in making those statements is to make America a safer place.