The waters getting muddy already. Let me try again. God's perfect ability to see and make things for the future dictates; 1. That once those things are 'made', the future those things encounter is now exactly what God wanted. Because they are made specifically for that future/Timeline.
1. If God is perfect than nothing can change what he wants to have happen.
2. If the future is set for us because of God's action in 'making' us for this future. Thereby we have no 'free will' to change the future God saw for us. It's not God seeing the future that set it in stone. It's his creation of the objects that interact which dictates or makes that future.
3. Ergo, no free will.
4. Ergo, God made us broken from what the bible says he wants.
We might get somewhere on free will if you answer my question about being hypnotized.
Board index ‹ Satan
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Re: Where did Satan's sin come from?
by U Can't Believe » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:56 am
- U Can't Believe
Re: Where did Satan's sin come from?
by jimwalton » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:16 pm
> God's perfect ability to see and make things for the future dictates
You're already off the mark. God has not made things for the future. He made free agents who are not determined, and He can see what they choose to do in their situations because He is not looking from the past, watching the carpet that He created unroll the way He created it (a false understanding). Instead, as the Bible teaches, He created free agents to regulate their own decisions, and because He can see it from the perspective of a time-traveller, so to speak, He knows, because He can see, not because He dictated it, what it will look like. He didn't make it the way it rolls out; it rolls out the way people decide every minute to roll it out. It's just that He can see it. It does not roll out the way God wanted it to—the Bible is quite clear about that in many, many places. Therefore by the end of your 3rd sentence, you have made numerous theological and logical errors. But we've been over this. It's getting repetitive.
> If God is perfect than nothing can change what he wants to have happen.
Wrong. God's perfection has nothing to do with determining human behavior, which He hasn't done. Lots of things change what He wants to have happen. Therefore your first premise is false.
> If the future is set for us because of God's action in 'making' us for this future.
Your second premise is also false. The future is not set. Jeremiah 18.1-12. We are free agents. God has not determined our thoughts and behavior.
> Thereby we have no 'free will' to change the future God saw for us.
This is false also. We have all the free will in the world.
> Ergo, no free will.
Therefore your first conclusion is false. Nothing about what you are saying is taught in the Bible. Nothing.
> Ergo, God made us broken from what the bible says he wants.
Therefore your final conclusion is false. Virtually everything you have said is untrue when it comes to biblical teaching. Hey, you're welcome to believe whatever you want, but just don't attribute it to the Bible, to God, or to biblical theology.
> We might get somewhere on free will if you answer my question about being hypnotized: "Hypothetically, if everyone were hypnotized to wave at red heads. We would all think of it as normal behavior. How is it that you would know if you were hypnotized or you were doing it of your own 'free will'?"
Because your hypothetical situation contrasts the picture of reality (1) that we are able to discern from our experiences, and (2) that the Bible talks about. This isn't "The Matrix." The picture the Bible gives of reality is that we have not been coerced or deceived, and that God doesn't interfere with our free will. The Bible instead paints a picture that God has created us with the ability to reason (and not an ability based on a ruse), the ability to choose (not only within certain boundaries according to a pre-written script), and genuine accountability for how we reason and how we choose (which would be a farce if He were dictating and determining). All of life is a false and cruel game if your hypothesis is true, and it is contrary to everything the Bible teaches. That's how I assess your "hypnotized" hypothesis. It is a fabrication to deviously stir waters that are clear just to make mud, when there's no call to doubt the way it's been told. Free will is essential to our humanity, in terms of reasoning ability, science, and the foundations of human relationships, and it squares perfectly with what the Bible teaches. You think you can fabricate a situation that brings it all into doubt, but it doesn't work because your hypothetical is contrary to reality in every sphere of knowledge.
You're already off the mark. God has not made things for the future. He made free agents who are not determined, and He can see what they choose to do in their situations because He is not looking from the past, watching the carpet that He created unroll the way He created it (a false understanding). Instead, as the Bible teaches, He created free agents to regulate their own decisions, and because He can see it from the perspective of a time-traveller, so to speak, He knows, because He can see, not because He dictated it, what it will look like. He didn't make it the way it rolls out; it rolls out the way people decide every minute to roll it out. It's just that He can see it. It does not roll out the way God wanted it to—the Bible is quite clear about that in many, many places. Therefore by the end of your 3rd sentence, you have made numerous theological and logical errors. But we've been over this. It's getting repetitive.
> If God is perfect than nothing can change what he wants to have happen.
Wrong. God's perfection has nothing to do with determining human behavior, which He hasn't done. Lots of things change what He wants to have happen. Therefore your first premise is false.
> If the future is set for us because of God's action in 'making' us for this future.
Your second premise is also false. The future is not set. Jeremiah 18.1-12. We are free agents. God has not determined our thoughts and behavior.
> Thereby we have no 'free will' to change the future God saw for us.
This is false also. We have all the free will in the world.
> Ergo, no free will.
Therefore your first conclusion is false. Nothing about what you are saying is taught in the Bible. Nothing.
> Ergo, God made us broken from what the bible says he wants.
Therefore your final conclusion is false. Virtually everything you have said is untrue when it comes to biblical teaching. Hey, you're welcome to believe whatever you want, but just don't attribute it to the Bible, to God, or to biblical theology.
> We might get somewhere on free will if you answer my question about being hypnotized: "Hypothetically, if everyone were hypnotized to wave at red heads. We would all think of it as normal behavior. How is it that you would know if you were hypnotized or you were doing it of your own 'free will'?"
Because your hypothetical situation contrasts the picture of reality (1) that we are able to discern from our experiences, and (2) that the Bible talks about. This isn't "The Matrix." The picture the Bible gives of reality is that we have not been coerced or deceived, and that God doesn't interfere with our free will. The Bible instead paints a picture that God has created us with the ability to reason (and not an ability based on a ruse), the ability to choose (not only within certain boundaries according to a pre-written script), and genuine accountability for how we reason and how we choose (which would be a farce if He were dictating and determining). All of life is a false and cruel game if your hypothesis is true, and it is contrary to everything the Bible teaches. That's how I assess your "hypnotized" hypothesis. It is a fabrication to deviously stir waters that are clear just to make mud, when there's no call to doubt the way it's been told. Free will is essential to our humanity, in terms of reasoning ability, science, and the foundations of human relationships, and it squares perfectly with what the Bible teaches. You think you can fabricate a situation that brings it all into doubt, but it doesn't work because your hypothetical is contrary to reality in every sphere of knowledge.
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