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[Pree]

I think one of the most prominent facts that Jesus is not who he claimed to be is he claimed to be the Messiah. If this is false, then I don’t see any reason to believe his other lofty claims (like being God). The Messiah was/is a very specific apocalyptic figure in Judaism, and I don’t think Jesus fulfilled really any of the Messianic prophecies. That’s a start. So we could discuss this if you like.

[jimwalton]

I'd love to discuss it. Your proof that Jesus is not the Messiah is necessarily based on being able to reliably determine what Old Testament texts are Messianic and which are not. There were great disagreements in Judaic scholarship, and even more disagreements in Christian vs. Judaic apocalyptic writings. So let's start with how you can reliably determine what texts are and are not Messianic prophecies and we can continue the discussion.

Thank you for raising the question. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

[Pree]

You’re right that there’s a lot of disagreement about what’s Messianic and what’s not. So I try to take a ‘minimal facts approach’ and only use texts that both Jews and Christians typically agree are Messianic.

As a start, I’d say that these Messianic prophecies typically include one or more of the following: 1) Israel and Judah being reunited back into their land, 2) A king from the line of David who will reign over them, 3) The establishment of Israel as the leader of all nations, and 4) An age of world peace.

[jimwalton]

An important factor in arriving at truth is a responsible mythological approach. Already with a "minimal facts approach" you are possibly eliminating bodies of evidence, restricting what will be used, and trying to direct the focus of the discussion. I know we have to pick a starting point, but I just hope you see that even your approach could skew the outcome.

Using only texts that both Jews and Christians typically agree are Messianic is basically saying "what Jews regard as Messianic," because the New Testament adds mountains of possibilities that the Jews didn't recognize. Again, we may be skewing the investigation.

Jesus himself seemed to think that pretty much the entire OT was Messianic, with all of it pointing to Him and all of it being a road leading to Him. The NT writers took many passages not recognized as Messianic, but they interpreted them as pertaining to Jesus as messiah. So we're leaving all of that out, and just dealing with Jewish expectations? Given that possibility, we are leaving out a lot of information.

If we're going to have this discussion, we should at least attempt to be thorough. Jewish messianic expectation:

- The Messiah would come through the genealogy of Abraham and subsequently of Jacob (Num. 24.17-19), Judah (Gn. 49.10), and David.
- As you said, a king from the line of David who will rule over them forever (Num. 24.17-19; 1 Sam. 2.10; 2 Sam. 2.16; 7.16; Hosea 3.5; Zech. 3.8 and many more)
- He would be equal to God (Ps. 110)
- He would be God (Isa. 9.6-7; Dan. 7.9-14)
- He would be human (Gn. 3.15)
- Considered the firstborn, the son of God, the only begotten of God (Ps. 89.26-29)
- He will be rejected by people (Ps. 118.22-24)
- He will die but not decay (Ps. 16.10; Ps. 22 [ancient Jews regarded Ps. 22 as messianic]; Ps. 118.17)
- a humble king (Zech. 9.9-10)
- He will be a priest (1 Sam. 2.35)
- He will be a refiner of Israel (Mal. 3.2-3)
- He will bring salvation (Ps. 118.25-27)
- He would have the gift of prophecy (Dt. 18.14-22)
- Psalm 2, 21.4; 72, 89, 110, 132: royal, universal rule, everlasting kingdom, deliverer of his people, a blessing to his people and the world
- Isa. 7.14; 9.1-7, 11.9; 42.1; 49.6: royal universal rule; granter of true justice
- Jer. 23.5-6; 30.9, 21; 33.17-22: everlasting, deliverer
- Ezekiel 34.23-24; 37.24-25: A shepherd king of his people, the character of a servant
- Daniel 9.24-27: put an end to sin, atone for wickedness, bring in everlasting righteousness.
- Ezekiel 37.15-28; Amos 9.11-15: Restoration of Israel
- Micah 5.2-5; Isa.9.6-7; Ezk. 37.24: Born in Bethlehem, shepherd of Israel, Prince of Peace
- Zech. 6.13; 9.9-10: royal universal rule, peace
- Deut. 28.13; Isa. 60; Zech. 14: The establishment of Israel as the leader of all nations
- An age of world peace: Isa. 2.4; Ezk. 37.26.
- Psalm 16: joy, eternal pleasures, safety and rest, and a delightful inheritance—in short, everything the human heart craves.
- Psalm 89: Davidic ruler, righteous, just, glory and strength.

This gives us a place to begin. What would you like to discuss?