Board index ‹ LGBT: Gays, Lesbians, Bisexual, Transgender, and Homosexuality

[BobbyD]

I just saw this comment online with a story about Neil Patrick Harris marrying his longtime partner:

For those of you quoting the bible to preach your own agenda of hate... Are you in favour selling your daughters into slavery? (Exodus 21:7) ... If someone you know insists on working on the Sabbath are you morally obligated to kill them yourself or should you call your local church to do it, since the bible says they should be put to death (Exodus 35:2) ... If a local farmer is planting different crops side by side should the whole town gather to stone him to death or just his neighbours? (Deuteronomy 22:9) ...If your mother is wearing a garment of two different fabrics, should you burn her to death at a small family gathering or should you invite extended family as well? (Deuteronomy 22:11) ...

My question is, how does a Christian argue with this? It seems more and more simply saying "The Bible says so" isn't a good enough answer or reason for people. Then you are called a bigot and close-minded. And why is gay marriage wrong if several of the above mentioned things are wrong and we don't do them. This is becoming an increasingly difficult conversation to have with anybody without being called names. Everybody that mentioned the Bible on the above story was basically told to you know what.

Here is the story: http://www.people.com/article/neil-patrick-harris-marries-david-burtka

Thanks,
Bobby

[jimwalton]

Yes, the conversation about homosexuality is quickly becoming an impossible conversation to have between a Christian and a non-believer, because in the eyes and mind of the non-believer, there is only one possible answer: "Homosexuality is OK, and the Bible is an outdated and hateful book." Since many Christians don't believe either, the conversation ends there and Christians are regarded as stupid and hateful. We have to continue to be a loving as possible,and at the same time keep standing on the truth. There are, however, answers to the questions they pose. They do have to be handled separately, though. I'll try to rep brief, but if you want to talk more, just ask.

Ex. 21.7. Of course we don't sell our daughters into slavery. Whoever brings this up is reading the Bible superficially and not honestly. In ancient Israel, when a daughter was "sold into slavery" by her father, it was often both a payment of an outstanding debt as well as a way of obtaining a husband for a girl whose family could not afford a dowry. In those days, debts were often paid by a form of employment where a member of the family was sent to work for the person to whom money was owed. It was considered servitude, but it was much like our employment system where we agree to work for a person or a company to earn money. In ancient Israel, when the debt was paid off, the person was free to go to another "job". It's the way their world worked. The problem is that we read 2014 meanings into these words (Oh, nasty father sold his daughter to be a slave!) instead of understanding what was going on. And then if the other person was pleased with the girl, he could marry her, the dowry was taken care of, and the girl was provided for.

Ex. 35.2. No, we don't kill people who work on the Sabbath. In ancient Israel, the Sabbath was the collective sign of the covenant between Israel and God (Ex. 31.13-17), just as circumcision is the clan sign of the covenant. The penalty is death because to dishonor the Sabbath was well-understood to be the way to "give God the finger", so to speak, and to make a public statement saying that you wanted nothing to do with God. Disregard for the Sabbath was equal to rejection of God. They all knew this; to us it's like, "Um, it's just another day." For them the Sabbath was deeply sacred, and rebellion against it was understood as a way to profane God himself. If someone normal went into the Holy of Holies, death was the penalty. So also here: if someone profanes God and the covenant, death is the penalty. That, of course, doesn't mean that the same penalty hangs over our heads today. Sabbath was ISRAEL'S covenant sign, not ours. Sabbath observance still has significance for us, but it doesn't carry the import for us that it did for them.

What about crops side by side, and different fabrics in the same garment? We understand that Jesus fulfilled the entire law (Mt. 5.17). He fulfilled it in general—not just one part of it. He did what the law failed to do: show people how to live. The law was temporary: God wanted to tell His people that they should have certain attitudes. He did that by commanding actions (the law) with the idea that they would see the attitudes behind them. They failed. Jesus, on the other hand, preached the attitudes (Mt. 5), and also lives an example of the proper attitudes (Phil. 2.5-8) as well as the proper actions (Jn. 8.46), thus accomplishing what the law failed to accomplish. So our model is now Jesus. In that sense, we can ignore the law, because if we follow Christ's example, we'll get the actions of the law AND the attitudes of the heart right. Our actions still coincide with many points of the law, which is to be expected, but we don't live by the law.

When we look at the laws about fabrics and crops, we as Christians look to the principle behind the laws to apply them to ourselves. The principle behind these in particular is that man should not mix what God has made separate. For us, that means things like holiness and worldliness, love of God and love of money, and being in the world but not of it. We can easily see these principles in the New Testament.

But where does homosexuality fit into all of this. Since it was in the law (Lev. 18 & 20), is it also "gone" like the laws of diverse kinds? Not at all. The sexual laws of Lev. 18 & 20 are laws concerning interpersonal relations that reflect God's holiness (that's the principle behind them). Israel, just as we are in Rom. 1, was instructed to live a life different from the Canaanites, whose lifestyle was deplorably immoral. In Leviticus, as well as in Romans 1, the illicit sexual practices were separating people from God and creating lifestyles that drew people away from godliness rather than toward Him. That has not changed, and so both the principles and the practices of the Bible's teaching that homosexuality is a sin still stand. This is not an answer that anyone who is an unbeliever will accept, but it's still the truth.

The sacrificial laws, rituals, and the priesthood are all valid, but now we look to Jesus, the perfect high priest and perfect sacrifice. They were symbols of our access to God, and we still have access to God, but now through Jesus.

The food laws were symbolic of the distinctions between Jews and Gentiles, and that separation has been abolished in Christ.

The laws about sexuality and relationships were symbolic of our relationship to God, and that relationship has been secured through Jesus. Sexuality throughout the Bible is used as a powerful symbol for one's relationship with God. When the Israelites dip into idolatry, God says they have "committed adultery" and "prostituted" themselves. God uses the symbol of marriage for his committed relationship with his people. Therefore sex outside of the committed relationship of marriage symbolizes a relationship with God that is broken and twisted from its intent. In that sense, our human relationships symbolize our relationship with God, and are to reflect holiness. Given that understanding, any relationship in the Bible other than that of a man and woman committed to one another in marriage is labeled as "an abomination," as a symbol of a corrupt relationship with God. Sexual relationships outside of the "norm" (hence an anomaly, or "out of whack") compromise one's holiness.

I hope this helps. Feel free to talk to me more.

[BobbyD]

Thanks for your answer, and I agree with you. But there's a lot of homosexual Christians. Some denominations of Christianity believe that homosexuality is ok. I have friends that are Christian and homosexual. I don't believe that what they are doing is right, but their stance is that homosexuality is fine. Some even say they were born that way and have tried to change and they can't. I don't want to cause rifts in my friendships, but how do I approach this topic, and not have them get mad? They are set in their ways.

[jimwalton]

For sure these are extremely difficult conversations. Many denominations and congregations of Christians believe that homosexuality is OK for several reasons. First, they say that homosexuality as it is expressed today is very different from the homosexuality spoken about in the Bible, and some of that is true. The Bible never addressed things like long-term loving homosexual relationships. Such things were completely unknown in the ancient world. In the ancient world, most homosexuality was pederasty (child sexual abuse), rape, or cultic sex, and we would still all agree that these things are horrifically immoral. When the Bible declares homosexuality as an abomination, this is what the Bible is talking about, because this was the homosexuality of the ancient world. People falling in love with a same-sex partner and wanting to establish a life-long relationship was completely unheard of, and the Bible never says anything about such things.

Secondly, some churches say that Christians should learn to love and accept everyone, because that is the way of Christ. On this point they are misguided and wrong. Jesus often spoke of judgment and of divisions between people who thought they were God-pleasing but were missing the mark (sin), and those who were truly God's children. It's true that Jesus was very loving of the worst people in their society, but there's no indication that he was ever willing to ignore sin or brush it off as insignificant.

So saying, there are some points you may be able to start discussions with. Let me throw out a few:

1. The Bible without exception says that homosexuality is wrong. While people say it's no different than racial equality or women's rights, it very much is. The Bible without exception says that homosexuality is wrong, but it doesn't tell us why. Often in conversations people want to know why it's wrong, and we may say things like, "Because marriage was meant to be between a man and a woman," "Because a man and woman's bodies were meant to fit together," or "We were designed to have children." While all these things are true, they ultimately fail as arguments when pressed to their limits, as to giving a solid reason. We still stand on the truth that the Bible says it's wrong.

2. I believe that we all have an inner knowledge that homosexuality is not just another choice equal to the others. I believe that we all have an inner knowledge that homosexuality is different (incompatible, mismatched, disparate, conflicting, divergent) and that the fight to see it as equal is an effort against conscience.

3. I believe that a way to evaluate the merit of an idea or behavior is to ask, “What if we were all like that?” That certainly works with love, forgiveness, justice, kindness, and a multitude of other traits. That doesn’t work with homosexuality. If we are all homosexuals, society fails. Society does not fail with monogamy, heterosexuality, sexual morality, and a multitude of other social mores.

4. “Love” is often given as a reason for the validity of homosexuality. “What’s wrong with people loving each other?” In the Bible, love isn’t a moral value by itself. It is a moral value when it is properly placed and has an appropriate focus. In the Bible, the moral placement and focus of love is found in monogamous heterosexual relationships. Why? See #1: because the Bible unequivocally and without exception says that homosexuality is wrong.

5. “I was born this way” is never, in the Bible, a justification for behavior. If anything, it’s exactly the opposite—if it’s natural to us, it’s in contradiction to life in the Spirit. We are all born into sin, and so to justify our behavior on the basis of “born this way” doesn’t speak to its possible acceptability. “I was born this way” and “I can’t help it,” as common mantras of the homosexual justification, clearly fail as biblical arguments.

Hope that helps. You should realize that you will never "win" this argument. Most people will not agree with what you say. But it can still be said. I believe quite firmly that it's still the truth.