What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ and is this being a different being than the devil? I'd like Christian interpretations of this, I'll also be looking it up for myself.
I've debated theists for a few years now and in the process read many parts of the bibles, and so have learned quite a bit in the process. But I haven't come across much about the concept of Anti-Christ.
Someone recently told me that the USA president compares very well to this Anti-Christ and i found this intriguing since i haven't really heard much about that, so I'm curios what some christians think on this topic. But I'm also curious what the bible actually says about it, so I'll be looking into that as well.
Your insights are appreciated.
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Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by jimwalton » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:12 pm
The only time the Bible uses the term "antiChrist" (in 1 John 2.18-25; 4.1-6), it is speaking of people who oppose Jesus's deity. It's the spirit of falseness and deceit rather than the spirit of truth—false prophets rather than true ones. This is different from the devil, who is an accuser.
Most of what people mean by "the AntiChrist" comes from Revelation 13, though the word is never used there. There we read about two beasts, one from the sea and one from the land.
The first beast is a political and religious ruler (therefore Trump is not this person). He/She is active in politics and might even be an admired world leader (therefore Trump is not this person). Or he could be the head of a multi-national corporation. This "beast" is the unideal, the anti-hero, the embodiment of evil. He stands in the way of God. What we learn about this first beast is that he is ...
The second beast seems to exist to glorified the first beast. He seems to be capable of miracles mimicking the power of God (and deceiving people in the process).
As you might guess, there are numerous different interpretations of these beasts. Some think they are a philosophy or a worldview. Some think they were about the Roman Empire, and nothing more. Some think it is Islam; other says it's the Roman Catholic Church. Others think it applied to Rome initially, but also applies to a world leader coming in the future.
It has been almost impossible to figure out, but if we are familiar with the texts and the attributes of this system or person, and if it does apply to someone in the future, we study the texts so that we can recognize it/him/her when it happens. I've been trying to be a careful observer, but there's really nothing that makes me think Donald Trump is the anti-Christ. That sounds like it comes from someone who simply hates him or what he is doing.
Most of what people mean by "the AntiChrist" comes from Revelation 13, though the word is never used there. There we read about two beasts, one from the sea and one from the land.
The first beast is a political and religious ruler (therefore Trump is not this person). He/She is active in politics and might even be an admired world leader (therefore Trump is not this person). Or he could be the head of a multi-national corporation. This "beast" is the unideal, the anti-hero, the embodiment of evil. He stands in the way of God. What we learn about this first beast is that he is ...
- powerful
- persecuting of Christians. He wars victoriously against Christians around the world.
- demonic in character
- blasphemous in stance
- hideous
- he possesses the authority of Satan but is ultimately under God’s control and heading for defeat
- he receives the worship of the pagan world
The second beast seems to exist to glorified the first beast. He seems to be capable of miracles mimicking the power of God (and deceiving people in the process).
As you might guess, there are numerous different interpretations of these beasts. Some think they are a philosophy or a worldview. Some think they were about the Roman Empire, and nothing more. Some think it is Islam; other says it's the Roman Catholic Church. Others think it applied to Rome initially, but also applies to a world leader coming in the future.
It has been almost impossible to figure out, but if we are familiar with the texts and the attributes of this system or person, and if it does apply to someone in the future, we study the texts so that we can recognize it/him/her when it happens. I've been trying to be a careful observer, but there's really nothing that makes me think Donald Trump is the anti-Christ. That sounds like it comes from someone who simply hates him or what he is doing.
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Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by Tarnished » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:16 pm
> I've been trying to be a careful observer, but there's really nothing that makes me think Donald Trump is the anti-Christ. That sounds like it comes from someone who simply hates him or what he is doing.
I think the trump comparison is pretty vague since the anti Christ isn't well defined. But coming from an atheist, comparing someone like trump who uses Christianity like a political pawn, I can see how the comparison could work.
I think the trump comparison is pretty vague since the anti Christ isn't well defined. But coming from an atheist, comparing someone like trump who uses Christianity like a political pawn, I can see how the comparison could work.
- Tarnished
Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by jimwalton » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:18 pm
> I think the trump comparison is pretty vague since the anti Christ isn't well defined.
Correct on both points.
> But coming from an atheist, comparing someone like trump who uses Christianity like a political pawn, I can see how the comparison could work.
Except that I don't see anything in Rev. 13 that speaks of using Christianity like a political pawn. In Rev. 13.7 he makes war against the saints and to conquer them. Trump is sucking up to Christians, and he's using them like political pawns, but he's not "making war." The text seems to be speaking of the kind of violent oppression and opposition that is martyrdom. So I don't see how the comparison could work. It's not the right picture, the right attitude, or the right action as far as Trump's interaction with Christians.
And Rev. 13.8 speaks of the world worshipping this person—ain't gonna happen with Trump! I just don't see it. I'm willing to see your case and discuss it with you, but using Christians like political pawns isn't in the picture, by my reading of the text—even metaphorically or symbolically. But let's talk.
Correct on both points.
> But coming from an atheist, comparing someone like trump who uses Christianity like a political pawn, I can see how the comparison could work.
Except that I don't see anything in Rev. 13 that speaks of using Christianity like a political pawn. In Rev. 13.7 he makes war against the saints and to conquer them. Trump is sucking up to Christians, and he's using them like political pawns, but he's not "making war." The text seems to be speaking of the kind of violent oppression and opposition that is martyrdom. So I don't see how the comparison could work. It's not the right picture, the right attitude, or the right action as far as Trump's interaction with Christians.
And Rev. 13.8 speaks of the world worshipping this person—ain't gonna happen with Trump! I just don't see it. I'm willing to see your case and discuss it with you, but using Christians like political pawns isn't in the picture, by my reading of the text—even metaphorically or symbolically. But let's talk.
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Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by Tarnished » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:34 pm
> Except that I don't see anything in Rev. 13 that speaks of using Christianity like a political pawn.
Yeah, we've established the bible is vague. So anti means against, so anti Christ can be said to mean against Christ, and this can be vague. And a political leader who uses other people's belief in Christ for his own political gain and manipulation, seems to be very much against the spirit of what Christ taught.
Yeah, we've established the bible is vague. So anti means against, so anti Christ can be said to mean against Christ, and this can be vague. And a political leader who uses other people's belief in Christ for his own political gain and manipulation, seems to be very much against the spirit of what Christ taught.
- Tarnished
Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by jimwalton » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:41 pm
> And a political leader who uses other people's belief in Christ for his own political gain and manipulation, seems to be very much against the spirit of what Christ taught.
Well, then, that could include a lot of politicians who use (well, often misuse) the Bible to score political points. Hillary Clinton and Pete Buttigieg are some very recent examples, but it happens all the time. I actually watch for such things as they come across the news, and the way politicians use the Bible is usually pretty funny. Many people running for president and Congress try to woo the evangelical vote by manipulation. I still think this doesn't point to Trump any more than to anyone else.
I agree that it's very much against the spirit of what Christ taught, but I don't see it pointing to Trump any more than in any other direction. A lot of Christians at the time were saying that Obama was the anti-christ. I think people tend to demonize those whom they oppose.
Well, then, that could include a lot of politicians who use (well, often misuse) the Bible to score political points. Hillary Clinton and Pete Buttigieg are some very recent examples, but it happens all the time. I actually watch for such things as they come across the news, and the way politicians use the Bible is usually pretty funny. Many people running for president and Congress try to woo the evangelical vote by manipulation. I still think this doesn't point to Trump any more than to anyone else.
I agree that it's very much against the spirit of what Christ taught, but I don't see it pointing to Trump any more than in any other direction. A lot of Christians at the time were saying that Obama was the anti-christ. I think people tend to demonize those whom they oppose.
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Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by Tarnished » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:59 am
> Well, then, that could include a lot of politicians who use (well, often misuse) the Bible to score political points.
I didn't say misuse the bible. I'm saying he's manipulating Christians.
I didn't say misuse the bible. I'm saying he's manipulating Christians.
- Tarnished
Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by jimwalton » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:14 am
Yeah, I got that you didn't say "misuse the Bible," though I think when politicians use the Bible they are trying for a connecting point with people who believe in it.
But as far has manipulating Christians, having been a Christian for a long time, we notice when the politicians are specifically trying to court the Christian vote, and sometimes specifically the evangelical vote. It's often a manipulation to get elected (though presidents Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush were Christians themselves).
Just some examples:
Ronald Reagan worked with Jerry Falwell to register millions of evangelical voters to win the election. (https://www.salon.com/2014/05/18/the_evangelical_presidency_reagans_dangerous_love_affair_with_the_christian_right/)
"Before serving as vice president to Ronald Reagan, the elder Bush, in interviews, referred to evangelicals like Pat Robertson as "snake handlers and swindlers." Coincidentally, he would later run against Robertson in the Republican primaries, by which point the evangelical voting bloc had become a significant portion of the Republican party. Recognizing that the bloc could help him get elected in 1988, the elder Bush enlisted missionary and policy adviser Doug Wead to improve his standing among evangelical Christians during his vice presidency, and into his presidency." (https://classroom.synonym.com/the-evangelical-influence-on-the-bush-presidencies-12085971.html)
"Bill Clinton in 1996 won the majority of freestyle evangelicals. But in 2000, George Bush won the majority of freestyle evangelicals. It shifted by about 10 percent away from Gore towards Bush, which, in an election that close, it was a very important shift. ... But it is a group that's fluid and in play and can be gotten by either candidate." (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/evangelicals/vote.html)
"Why did Obama win more white evangelical votes than Clinton? He asked for them." (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/11/22/why-did-obama-win-more-white-evangelical-votes-than-clinton-he-asked-for-them/)
"The white evangelical vote has been a focus of post-election coverage, and for good reason. If you had told the average person that white evangelicals would account for more than a fourth of the entire electorate, they may not have believed you: After all, evangelicals are often imagined as a fringe population. But they represented more than a quarter of the electorate in 2012 and 2008, and again this year."
So, if every president tries to woo the evangelical vote and manipulate Christians, why is Trump the anti-christ for doing it?
But as far has manipulating Christians, having been a Christian for a long time, we notice when the politicians are specifically trying to court the Christian vote, and sometimes specifically the evangelical vote. It's often a manipulation to get elected (though presidents Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush were Christians themselves).
Just some examples:
Ronald Reagan worked with Jerry Falwell to register millions of evangelical voters to win the election. (https://www.salon.com/2014/05/18/the_evangelical_presidency_reagans_dangerous_love_affair_with_the_christian_right/)
"Before serving as vice president to Ronald Reagan, the elder Bush, in interviews, referred to evangelicals like Pat Robertson as "snake handlers and swindlers." Coincidentally, he would later run against Robertson in the Republican primaries, by which point the evangelical voting bloc had become a significant portion of the Republican party. Recognizing that the bloc could help him get elected in 1988, the elder Bush enlisted missionary and policy adviser Doug Wead to improve his standing among evangelical Christians during his vice presidency, and into his presidency." (https://classroom.synonym.com/the-evangelical-influence-on-the-bush-presidencies-12085971.html)
"Bill Clinton in 1996 won the majority of freestyle evangelicals. But in 2000, George Bush won the majority of freestyle evangelicals. It shifted by about 10 percent away from Gore towards Bush, which, in an election that close, it was a very important shift. ... But it is a group that's fluid and in play and can be gotten by either candidate." (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/evangelicals/vote.html)
"Why did Obama win more white evangelical votes than Clinton? He asked for them." (https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/11/22/why-did-obama-win-more-white-evangelical-votes-than-clinton-he-asked-for-them/)
"The white evangelical vote has been a focus of post-election coverage, and for good reason. If you had told the average person that white evangelicals would account for more than a fourth of the entire electorate, they may not have believed you: After all, evangelicals are often imagined as a fringe population. But they represented more than a quarter of the electorate in 2012 and 2008, and again this year."
So, if every president tries to woo the evangelical vote and manipulate Christians, why is Trump the anti-christ for doing it?
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Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by Tarnished » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:09 pm
It's sad that you're comparing human presidents like Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, with trump. Almost as though you think he's a decent person like all the presidents before him.
People that support trump as a politician first have already abandoned him. People who support him like a sycophant are all that is left. I don't understand why though. The best I can come up with is this.
They support him, regardless of what kind of person he is, regardless of the lies, the deals with foreign powers, or whether he shoots someone in broad daylight on 5th avenue, because to those people the ends always justify the means when it comes to abortion, guns, anti gay (conversion therapy), or any other religious position that isn't based in evidence.
Because these issues are so important, but cannot be won legitimately because they're either not supported by facts and evidence, which his supporters can't seem to recognize, or are unpopular. So the only hope they have of grasping onto any hope of having it their way, is to be a sycophant to a lying conman who will do anything to stay in power to make as much money as he can.
Why else would they overlook the Mueller report and make excuses for it. Why else would they overlook him putting a science ignorant creationist in as the education secretary. Oh wait, nevermind that one, that's obvious. Why else would they overlook him putting a science denying creationist climate denier as the head of the EPA? Oh, right. Why else would they overlook him siding with Putin over our own intelligence agencies about whether Russia interfered in our elections? Why else would they overlook the fact that he's constantly trying to obstruct oversight into his administration? If he's innocent, why get in the way of oversight and investigations?
People that support trump as a politician first have already abandoned him. People who support him like a sycophant are all that is left. I don't understand why though. The best I can come up with is this.
They support him, regardless of what kind of person he is, regardless of the lies, the deals with foreign powers, or whether he shoots someone in broad daylight on 5th avenue, because to those people the ends always justify the means when it comes to abortion, guns, anti gay (conversion therapy), or any other religious position that isn't based in evidence.
Because these issues are so important, but cannot be won legitimately because they're either not supported by facts and evidence, which his supporters can't seem to recognize, or are unpopular. So the only hope they have of grasping onto any hope of having it their way, is to be a sycophant to a lying conman who will do anything to stay in power to make as much money as he can.
Why else would they overlook the Mueller report and make excuses for it. Why else would they overlook him putting a science ignorant creationist in as the education secretary. Oh wait, nevermind that one, that's obvious. Why else would they overlook him putting a science denying creationist climate denier as the head of the EPA? Oh, right. Why else would they overlook him siding with Putin over our own intelligence agencies about whether Russia interfered in our elections? Why else would they overlook the fact that he's constantly trying to obstruct oversight into his administration? If he's innocent, why get in the way of oversight and investigations?
- Tarnished
Re: What does the bible say about the Anti-Christ
by jimwalton » Sun Sep 29, 2019 1:10 pm
> It's sad that you're comparing human presidents like Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, with trump. Almost as though you think he's a decent person like all the presidents before him.
The *only* comparison I made was that they all try to manipulate the evangelical vote. I wouldn't *begin* to compare Trump to them in decency. Yeesh.
> People that support trump as a politician first have already abandoned him.
Some have, but that's not the point of our discussion. You wanted to know the evidence for perceiving DJT as the anti-Christ.
> or any other religious position that isn't based in evidence (and the rest of your post)
Wow, we have swung wide of the original conversation, haven't we. This is more like a rant than a discussion.
The *only* comparison I made was that they all try to manipulate the evangelical vote. I wouldn't *begin* to compare Trump to them in decency. Yeesh.
> People that support trump as a politician first have already abandoned him.
Some have, but that's not the point of our discussion. You wanted to know the evidence for perceiving DJT as the anti-Christ.
> or any other religious position that isn't based in evidence (and the rest of your post)
Wow, we have swung wide of the original conversation, haven't we. This is more like a rant than a discussion.
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