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by **thanksforyourhelp** » Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:55 am

Hello! Thanks for considering my question! I have a question about the singing portion of church worship. There about 700-750 people that attend each service at my church. We have church service in the gym--the pastor preaches from a stage at the front of the gym. The stage is higher than where the church attenders sit in folding chairs on the gym floor. The worship band also performs worship from the stage at the beginning and end of service. There are about 5 or 6 cameras running at once to get different angles of whatever is happening on the stage during the worship portion of service; one of these cameras is mobile which means a man or woman is wheeling or carrying the camera around the stage or on top of it to catch closer views of the worship team. The camera feeds into two large screens on either side of the stage and, of course, to at-home church viewers. During worship and preaching, the lights are low in the gym with spotlights on the stage. The music is contemporary with a keyboardist, singers, guitar, bass and drums. My concern is this: I feel as if I am at a concert than a worship service and I want to approach the worship director about my thoughts. When we first started attending the church, they put the lyrics on the big screens along with pictures of nature and only had 1 or 2 cameras that focused on the pastor during the preaching portion.

Here are some of my thoughts and concerns:

I feel as if I am watching individuals worship, rather than participating in worship.
I am distracted by the moving cameras, different camera shots on the big screens, and movements of the singers of the worship team.
It is very dark except the lights on the stage, so all of the focus is on the worship team rather than the congregation as a whole. The congregation cannot see each other during the service.
From what I can see, the worship on the stage does not reflect the worship on the gym floor--we do not mirror each other, the worship teams seems to be having a whole different worship experience.
Again the spotlight is on the team and on the individuals. I am uncomfortable with the amount of recognition they receive...children's ministry, security, etc. does not receive the same weekly spotlight.

It has gotten so bad that I want to skip the first fifteen minutes and leave as soon as the pastor is done. It is not so much about the content, but how that content is presented. I am wondering if my concerns are valid and how I should go about approaching the staff in a respectful manner--in person, email, etc. I am sure the team works very hard and they are vulnerable in the way they display their creativity and talent every week, but I think they have gotten off track. Thanks for any help!

by **jimwalton** » Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:32 am

Thanks for writing. I'll address your questions as best as I can, and we can continue the dialogue as you wish.

I'll start with this: Your concern is a good one. It's important that we make worship about connecting with God and not about the people "performing" on the stage. That being said, examining viable alternatives can get tricky.

I was part of a worship committee at my church a number of years ago where we spent considerable time studying what the Bible had to say about worship. I can email that study to you, but I'd have to have your email address (and I don't want to compromise your privacy without your consent). It's 11 pages long on a Word docx. I don't know if charts on the doc will translate to this forum. Another choice is that I could post it on another post in this thread so that others could see it as well. This solution would maintain your anonymity.

Our conclusion was this (briefly): Biblical worship has little to do with Sunday morning. It's instead a total lifestyle of love for God, commitment to Him, and actions coincident with that relationship ((righteous and good living, love of neighbor, etc.).

But as far as gathering to "worship" is concerned, it's a business of the heart. The mood should be joyful and celebratory. It can include just about anything: preaching and teaching, music, the arts, community, evangelism, reports, encouragement, spiritual gifts, public reading of Scripture, etc.

I have worked with a few churches on a consulting kind of role, and after we study Scripture, I often recommend to them that their Sunday mornings should be more being the people of God together than "music and a message." That often doesn't go over well because (1) modern congregations don't know how to do that, and don't even know how to begin, and (2) it can get pretty unwieldy with a congregation of, say, 700-750. So "music and a message" is the cultural model, and it's easier to do. So congregations use Sunday morning to do preaching and teachings, music, the arts, reports, and public reading of Scripture, and they use smaller meetings during the week to do community, evangelism, encouragement, spiritual gifts, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that approach. The Bible allows great flexibility in how we express our worship.

On to your questions.

> I feel as if I am watching individuals worship, rather than participating in worship.

There is really no way around being led in worship. Peter preached to thousands on Pentecost (Acts 2). Their eyes were on Peter, but their minds (at least of many) were on Christ and what he was saying. Paul preached in many congregations. It's the job of the worship leaders to direct minds and hearts to Christ, and it's the role of the congregants to think about Christ and His work. As far as music, in the ancient world most music was performance music, but we do know that people sang together as a group. It always requires a leader, though, and there's no way around that. Someone has to start the song (choose a key and begin); if there are instruments, not everyone has one. Music without leadership drags and often goes terribly off key. Music leaders are essential. Their goal is to keep the focus on Jesus; our role is to think about Christ and not the performers.

> I am distracted by...

Yes. Some of the performance elements of our modern worship is showmanship and can be distracting. I know what they're trying to do, being a musician myself and having been a worship leader for lots of years. We are trying to engage a world that is cynical and critical with a short attention span and racing minds. The lights and video are an attempt to keep people engaged; the down-side is that they can also become a distraction. In those situations, where I am in the congregation, I (for myself) have to watch the lyrics and stay engaged with the message of the song, not allowing myself to be distracted by the production. It's no different than most of my life. Our world is full of busyness, lights, motion, and distractions (OK, annoyances). I have to learn—all week long—how to focus my heart and mind.

> It is very dark except the lights on the stage, so all of the focus is on the worship team rather than the congregation as a whole.

The darkness is an attempt to minimize distractions. Since we are using Sunday morning for "music and a message," I'm not engaging with the congregation except in united song. For that, I need my ears and my hearts, not my eyes. It's not so much to focus on the worship team as it is to try to help you see God alone.

> I am wondering if my concerns are valid and how I should go about approaching the staff in a respectful manner

Conversation is always beneficial. It's good for you to express your thoughts as well as to hear theirs, and vice versa. If you want to talk to them, I would recommend a face-to-face rather than a letter. It's a time of learning, communication, and fellowship, not one of complaint.

Let's keep talking.

by **thanksforyourhelp** » Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:35 am

Thanks for your timely response! I would love to see that study if you are able to post to this thread. Thank you for giving the prospective of a musician as well as a person who has extensively studied worship. Every response made sense and I can see where a delicate balanced needs to be maintained--enough interest to have attenders engage in worship (and every attender engages in a different way), but not distract. With all that being said, I think I will approach my worship director and have an open conversation. I can try to explain in words the way our service looks and feels, but the Spirit pulls me to act wondering if team is doing more personal worship and performance verse engagement. Again, I would love to see that study before I request an appointment with my worship director. Thanks for your help. I have enjoyed your website for a couple of years!

jimwalton wrote:Thanks for writing. I'll address your questions as best as I can, and we can continue the dialogue as you wish.

I'll start with this: Your concern is a good one. It's important that we make worship about connecting with God and not about the people "performing" on the stage. That being said, examining viable alternatives can get tricky.

I was part of a worship committee at my church a number of years ago where we spent considerable time studying what the Bible had to say about worship. I can email that study to you, but I'd have to have your email address (and I don't want to compromise your privacy without your consent). It's 11 pages long on a Word docx. I don't if charts on the doc will translate to this forum. Another choice is that I could post it on another post in this thread so that others could see it as well. This solution would maintain your anonymity.

Our conclusion was this (briefly): Biblical worship has little to do with Sunday morning. It's instead a total lifestyle of love for God, commitment to Him, and actions coincident with that relationship ((righteous and good living, love of neighbor, etc.).

But as far as gathering to "worship" is concerned, it's a business of the heart. The mood should be joyful and celebratory. It can include just about anything: preaching and teaching, music, the arts, community, evangelism, reports, encouragement, spiritual gifts, public reading of Scripture, etc.

I have worked with a few churches on a consulting kind of role, and after we study Scripture, I often recommend to them that their Sunday mornings should be more being the people of God together than "music and a message." That often doesn't go over well because (1) modern congregations don't know how to do that, and don't even know how to begin, and (2) it can get pretty unwieldy with a congregation of, say, 700-750. So "music and a message" is the cultural model, and it's easier to do. So congregations use Sunday morning to do preaching and teachings, music, the arts, reports, and public reading of Scripture, and they use smaller meetings during the week to do community, evangelism, encouragement, spiritual gifts, etc. And there's nothing wrong with that approach. The Bible allows great flexibility in how we express our worship.

On to your questions.

> I feel as if I am watching individuals worship, rather than participating in worship.

There is really no way around being led in worship. Peter preached to thousands on Pentecost (Acts 2). Their eyes were on Peter, but their minds (at least of many) were on Christ and what he was saying. Paul preached in many congregations. It's the job of the worship leaders to direct minds and hearts to Christ, and it's the role of the congregants to think about Christ and His work. As far as music, in the ancient world most music was performance music, but we do know that people sang together as a group. It always requires a leader, though, and there's no way around that. Someone has to start the song (choose a key and begin); if there are instruments, not everyone has one. Music without leadership drags and often goes terribly off key. Music leaders are essential. Their goal is to keep the focus on Jesus; our role is to think about Christ and not the performers.

> I am distracted by...

Yes. Some of the performance elements of our modern worship is showmanship and can be distracting. I know what they're trying to do, being a musician myself and having been a worship leader for lots of years. We are trying to engage a world that is cynical and critical with a short attention span and racing minds. The lights and video are an attempt to keep people engaged; the down-side is that they can also become a distraction. In those situations, where I am in the congregation, I (for myself) have to watch the lyrics and stay engaged with the message of the song, not allowing myself to be distracted by the production. It's no different than most of my life. Our world is full of busyness, lights, motion, and distractions (OK, annoyances). I have to learn—all week long—how to focus my heart and mind.

> It is very dark except the lights on the stage, so all of the focus is on the worship team rather than the congregation as a whole.

The darkness is an attempt to minimize distractions. Since we are using Sunday morning for "music and a message," I'm not engaging with the congregation except in united song. For that, I need my ears and my hearts, not my eyes. It's not so much to focus on the worship team as it is to try to help you see God alone.

> I am wondering if my concerns are valid and how I should go about approaching the staff in a respectful manner

Conversation is always beneficial. It's good for you to express your thoughts as well as to hear theirs, and vice versa. If you want to talk to them, I would recommend a face-to-face rather than a letter. It's a time of learning, communication, and fellowship, not one of complaint.

Let's keep talking.

by **jimwalton** » Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:06 pm

I'll have to translate the chart into paragraphs. Shouldn't take too long:

SCRIPTURAL STUDY OF WORSHIP

How should one worship? (what to include)

Psalm 100, Psalm 95, Psalm 96, Psalm 149:1, Daniel 3:5, Revelation 4, Acts 2:40-47, Psalm 96:1, Psalm 150, Genesis 14, 1 Corinthians 14.1, 26, Hebrews 10.24-25, many texts from Acts, Eph. 5.19; Col. 3.16; Revelation 5.11b-12, Rev. 4.8, 11; Revelation 5.8-10, 12-13; 1 Timothy 4.13, 1 Corinthians 14.22-25

How does one worship? (attitudes)

Ex. 10.26; Psalm 100; Psalm 95, Psalm 150, Revelation 4; John 4:23-24, Isaiah 6.1-9

Who is called to worship?

Psalm 15, Isaiah 29, Acts 2:40-47, Psalm 150; Jn. 4.22; Phil. 3.3

What is worship?

Isaiah 6.1-9; Isaiah 29, Psalm 150; Acts 2.40-47, Mark 4.40-41, Luke 5.8, John 20.28

Underlying Attitudes of proper worship?

I Corinthians 3, Isaiah 29:13, Ephesians 4, Micah 6, Isaiah 1.10-17; Amos 5.21-24

What role does quality have in worship?

I Kings 6, I Chronicles 22, 28:19; Ps. 33.1-3

Why do we worship?

Psalm 29.2, Mt. 4.10, Ephesians 4, Psalm 150; Ps. 92.4; Mk. 4.40-41, Luke 5.8, John 20.28; Isa. 19.21

Where do we worship?

Psalm 150, John 4:23-24

Background

Hosea 6, Acts 2:40-47

SACRIFICE

Exodus 10.26

[*] Worship involves sacrifice.
[*] Worship involves personal involvement.
[*] They were bringing something big, costly, valuable.
[*] Be prepared for worship. They were planning. It was preparation for what the Lord has, which was unknown to them. They were preparing for unknowns.
[*] They were expectant that God will direct their worship.

These are different from how we worship now. Now we expect to receive, and to be entertained. We also plan to the minute what’s going to happen.

Romans 12.1-2

Worship involves sacrifice, not of a thing, but of self. How do we worship? By offering ourselves.
Worship involves transformation.
There are parallels between this and Ex. 10.26: “Then you will able to test and approve what God’s will is” is sort of like “until we get there we will not know what we are to use to worship.” It’s still preparation, but it’s preparing for the unknown.

As far as applying to us, we plan our worship services, but need to be alert to what God is doing in the service.

Worship is a response to God: “In view of God’s mercy…”

Worship involves personal involvement. Not just giving a bull, but giving yourself.

This is not necessarily talking about corporate worship. There are other texts, and mostly likely this one, where worship is a 24/7 state of the heart. That’s what this text is most likely addressing. That spirit of “life worship” is what is written here, but what happens in the service when we are assembled should be helping us fulfill that calling. If we come prepared, because we are living it 24/7, our worship is going to be a response that is pleasing to God. It could be either, or it could be both. Our corporate worship is more pleasing to God when we are sacrificing ourselves to God, and/or corporate worship should be helping us sacrifice ourselves to God.

Comments: Do these biblical references run incongruent to the direction that we seem to be going at Randall, i.e., making our service attractive to people to a service that has more widespread appeal to the younger people and especially non-believers?

Isaiah 19.21:

We are drawn to bring an offering of sacrifice as a gift or homage to show we are committed to worship.

Mark 14.9 = John 12.1-11

Worship is a pouring out of the dearest and costliest and most precious of ourselves.

Genesis 22.1-9

Worship is a pouring out of the dearest and costliest and most precious of ourselves.

Micah 6:6-8; Hosea 6.4-6

They wanted to offer sacrifices. What God wants from them is mercy, humility, and justice. Their sacrifice was killing something. What God wanted from them and from us is the continuity between righteous living and worship. The point of sacrifices was not to offer sacrifices, but to put your heart in right relationship with God.

Continuity between righteous living and WORSHIP

Psalm 33.1

Those who live rightly and justly are summoned to worship God.

Psalm 15.1-3.

The sanctuary is the place where God made His presence known in Israel. The question here is: who may worship God? We might expect the answer to be something about bringing right sacrifices or praying right prayers or singing right songs. But instead the answer is in how we live ordinary life. Those who do what’s right and don’t do what’s wrong may come before God in worship. Fitness for worship has to do not so much with appropriate acts of piety as with living obediently each day. Cf. Is. 1.16-17; Amos 5.23-24.

John 4.23-24

Worship is independent of place & time: it is the 24/7 vocation of all believers. Thus worship is truly a lifestyle, not a formal gathering.
True worship includes a spiritual sense of the object worshiped, and a spiritual communion with it; the manifestation of the moral consciousness in feelings, motions of the will, moods of elevation and excitement. It includes a truth conception of the object. Reverent thought and feeling; filial trust and love.
Our worship is about God. It is an issue of the heart, not a matter of following rules or just of knowledge.

Psalm 33.1

It is fitting for the upright to praise him.

Isaiah 1.10-17; Amos 5.21-24

Daily actions of mercy and justice are more important than rituals in assembly. The necessity of social justice.

Romans 12.1-2

Giving ourselves to God daily is our worship.

1 Corinthians 10.31

Doing all to the glory of God is ultimately worship to him.

FOCUS OF WORSHIP

Ephesians 4:

Recognition of the Son of God (13). We are not to be tossed around by every wind of worship style (14). Style of worship can become a type of vanity (19). We become greedy for what we want. You don’t have to be young to be immature in your faith.

Who is to WORSHIP?

John 4.22-23

Jesus draws a distinction between those who worship in ignorance and those who are informed worshippers. Worship is for believers.

Philippians 3.3

Worship is for believers.

HOW DO WE WORSHIP?

Psalm 100 (Also Ps. 98.4 – obviously a corporate setting)

Talking about how to worship God: with gladness, with joy, with songs, and with praise. There are shouts: praise can be exciting.
There is an element of positioning of ourselves as lower and Him as higher. Whenever we come before the Lord we should start with praise. Focus on who God is first and see who you are before him.
The “because” is in v. 5 also: God is good, he is love, and he is faithful.
The mood of worship in the psalm is one of excitement and exuberance.

Whatever the mood, it needs to be genuine. Worship has to be a balance and blend of moods and emotions without manipulation. This psalm speaks of joyous moods.

Isaiah 29:13-14

The substance of worship is not the rules we make or the things we say or sing. Our service structure could be exquisite, our words true and poetic, our behavior faithfully obedient to the requirements we have established – but this is nothing if our hearts are far from God. Worship is the business of the heart. God’s response in verse 14 is that of a jealous lover winning back his dispassionate wife. He decides to respond to the coldness of his people with “wonder upon wonder” until their rules are confounded, and they have no response left but what comes from their hearts. If your heart isn’t in the right place, you shouldn’t be doing it.

Psalm 33.1-3

Worship includes joyful singing a variety of instruments, and playing skillfully.

Psalm 95:1-7

Worship includes singing for joy, thanksgiving and exultation, acknowledgement of God’s greatness, humility.

Psalm 96.1-9

Worship includes finding new ways to praise God. It includes evangelization, awe, openly declaring His attributes, and being trembling before his holiness.

The Building of the Temple: 1 Ki. 6, 1 Chron. 22; 1 Chron. 28.19:

Based on God’s direction for the building of His temple, I have always been struck by necessity to worship the Lord in the most excellent way possible. All worship should strive for the highest level of creative excellence. God was not interested in a purely functional building to contain the basic elements of faith and worship. God, being the great creator imbues people with certain talents to reflect to his creative nature. We need to be careful to craft the very best that is humanly possible. The present culture is one of shallowness and anti-intellectualism. The Evangelical church reflects this all too often. Instead of drawing on the very best art it settles for reflecting and espousing TV pop cult. Great art should originate from the very best Christian artists. As Christian artists have in the past century, contemporary Christian artists should set a high standard.

Christians should drive the culture with great art, not the other way around.

Psalm 33.2

Worship with instruments and songs of joy

Daniel 3.5

Worship involves music.

Revelation 4.9-11

Worship involves a lot of bowing and falling down.

John 4.23

Our worship is about God. It involves truth. It requires a knowledge of God and his revelation of himself. We must know the God we are worshipping, which requires a relationship with him, knowing about him and his character and work. We must worship Him according to his word. Worshipping without truth is not true worship. It’s a matter of the head as well as the heart.

John 4.22

Jesus is making the distinction between useless, ignorant worship and informed worship.

Psalm 96.1; Rev. 5.9-10

It is good to sing new songs. But nothing in the Psalm prohibits the singing of older songs. The wording of the Psalm indicates that a new song can be a familiar song sung with new zeal, new insight, new joy, or in a new way. Whether a song is old or new is not the point. The main point is whether a song leads us truly into worship. Both new and old songs can do this. And so can new versions of old songs. And so can new songs inspired by old songs.

Acts 2.40-47

Their worship was a daily, continuous thing, and people noticed. Their worship warned and pleaded with people to be saved (40-41). Their worship included teaching, fellowship, communion, and prayer (42). The result was awe. Their worship included more than only one hour on Sunday morning. It also included daily living out the good news in front of people (44-46).

Psalm 150

What to do: Praise the Lord

Where to do it: in his sanctuary, in his heavens

Why to praise him: for his acts of power & greatness

How to praise him: A joyous celebration and praise of who God is, remembering and rehearsing his qualities, with all available instruments (the terms used cover every kind of instrument they had at the time: wind, strings, percussion) and dancing. Use vibrant sounds and movements. Worship him with all we are and have. Praise with abandon and lively expectation—sparing no cost, with no reservations.

Who should praise him: Everyone. Praise is participatory and everyone should be actively involved in praise.

1 Cor. 14.1

Worship is linked with instruction

1 Cor. 14.26

Each person has something to contribute by using their spiritual gifts.

Ephesians 5.19; Col. 3.16

Many different musical styles

Isaiah 6.1-9

Hebrews 10.24-25

Worship involves gathering with other Christians. Worship calls for opportunity to share, to encourage

Revelation 4.8, 11

Repetition in recitation

1 Timothy 4.13

Public reading of Scripture

WHY DO WE WORSHIP?

Psalm 29.2; Mt. 4.10

It is commanded.

Psalm 150; Ps. 92.4

To honor God for who he is and what he has done.

Isaiah 19.21

To show our commitment through offering and sacrifice.

What is Worship?

Isaiah 6.1-9

This chapter provides a striking example of the rhythm of revelation and response. First, God’s character is revealed: God is high, lifted up, and holy, holy, holy. The prophet’s response is exactly right: “Woe…I am ruined.” But God graciously reveals more. He is loving and merciful. This is revealed by atoning action and explanatory speech. Isaiah’s response, again, is the right one: He humbly receives God’s grace and believes God’s word. Finally, God’s work and will are revealed as the Lord himself asks, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?” Isaiah faithfully responds: “Here am I. Send me!”

TITHING

Genesis 14

Abraham worships God by giving a tithe.

ASSORTED NOTES:

1 Cor. 3.3-11, edited:

“You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, ‘I follow [Isaac Watts] and another ‘I follow [Graham Kendrick],’ are you not mere men? What, after all, is [John Newton]? And what is [Chris Tomlin]? Only servants through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. [Fanny Crosby] planted the seed, [Matt Redman] watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Dt. 4.19:

We are drawn into worship as a part of our very nature, which is why we are warned not to worship any part of God’s creation.

Isaiah 2.20:

We want to make things that are visible to help us focus our worship—things or institutions.

My definition of worship: "Recognizing and rehearsing all of who God is, and giving all of myself to Him."

by **thanksforyourhelp** » Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:29 pm

Thank you for sharing your study of worship!!

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