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What is Christianity

Do you accept these beliefs?

Postby Hopeful » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:05 pm

As a "Christian," do you accept all of the claims laid out here? To what extent is this an accurate characterization of your beliefs?

The idea is that a nonbeliever should consider the possible acceptance of Christianity only when each of these beliefs has been supported in a way that is credible and is supportable to a high level of reliability and confidence.

List of (arguably) essential and foundation claims of Christianity:

יהוה/YHWH/Yahweh exists

Satan, a free willed angel (capable of supernatural actualizations) exists (if Satan can be shown in actualization, then other members of the supernatural Deity hierarchy will be accepted)

The construct of monotheistic Yahwehism is true (i.e., There is, and always has been, only one God and that God is YHWH)

The construct of the Trinity, the persons/essences of the Father (YHWH), the Son (Jesus as the Christ) and the Holy Spirit is actualized in YHWH; Three essences-persons/one entity. Or a Godhead of YHWH, The Christ, and the Spirit; separate but still monotheistic. Or YWHW is the only God and Jesus (as the Christ) and the Holy Spirit are not Gods.

YHWH actualized, with cognitive purpose, the initiation of the formation of this space-time universe

Any mechanisms, except for YHWH actualized intervention, are incapable of producing cosmo-genesis (or initiation of this universe). (Any other possible mechanism must be proven impossible, not just improbable or undemonstrated/unknown by humans. This claim is required to support a claim that "God is necessary or required for cosmo-genesis.")

YHWH is both capable of, and has produced/continues to produce, actualization of events/effects/interactions/causations within this space-time universe

Any mechanisms, except for YHWH actualized intervention, are incapable of producing non-life to life transition. (Any other possible mechanism must be proven impossible, not just improbable or undemonstrated/unknown by humans. This claim is required to support a claim that "God is necessary or required for abiogenesis/transition from non-life to life.")

YHWH actualized, with cognitive purpose within this universe, the transition from non-life to life

YHWH actualized, with cognitive purpose, the eventual evolution of homo sapiens (Bonus - what, from the point of view of YHWH, is the purpose of humans?) If the claimant is a YEC, then: YHWH actualized, with cognitive purpose, the transition of non-life to life directly into the form of humans.

Free will (in some form other than illusion) exists from the creator YHWH that, at a minimum, has attributes of perfect knowledge of the results of YHWH's own cognitive actions and is the universe creator (i.e., Yahweh has purposeful knowledge of, and is the cause of, all actualization)

Mind-body dualism (i.e., a soul), or something similar, exists; some part of the "I" survives physical death to exist in the afterlife An afterlife exists and that some or all of the "I" will have actualized existence in this afterlife

Heaven exists (if Heaven can be shown to exist in actualization, then the other levels of the afterlife will be accepted) (Bonus: What, from the point of view of YHWH, is the purpose of Heaven?)

Prayers (spoken and/or inner monologue telepathically sent) of petition/intervention/supplication are positively answered by Yahweh
The actualizations of purpose of YHWH, as presented in the Torah and Bible, represents reality

The revelations of YHWH, as presented in the Torah and Bible, are historical actualizations of the Word of God

An Objective Morality, linked to the revelations and authority of YHWH, exists (Bonus: What does "objective" mean in the context of Objective Morality?) Second Bonus: Provide a codified listing of this Objective Morality and discussion on how to apply this morality.

Abraham and Moses/Moshe existed (historically as a person, historically via the secular narratives of canon scriptures, and historically via the supernatural elements of the canon scriptures)

Jesus existed (historically as a person, historically via the secular narratives of canon scriptures, and historically via the supernatural elements of the canon scriptures) and is the Jewish Christ/Anointed One/Messiah/Mashiach (via the, arguable, meeting of all the relevant prophecies) and is fully human/fully Yahweh or otherwise Divine

A human Jewish male, named Yehoshua/Jesus, historically existed in the timeframe of interest (i.e., 25-35'ish CE). A "Jesus" in this timeframe was a Messiah claimant.

A "Jesus" was put to death by the Romans.

A "Jesus," from the above two points, is the Jesus of the canon Gospels and Pauline narratives of the New Testament.

Jesus existed historically via the secular narratives of canon scriptures. That is, the secular (non-divine) accounts of the places/locations of Jesus (basically day to day life) in the canon scriptures is accurate.

Jesus existed historically via the words/sermons/messages as presented in the canon scriptures. That is, Jesus actually spoke the words attributed to him and the words were recorded accurately.

Jesus existed historically via the secular (non-divine) actions presented in the canon scriptures. That is, Jesus performed the non-divine actions attributed to him (ex., fasted 40 days in the desert).

Jesus existed historically via the claims of Divine based actions attributed to him as presented in the canon scriptures. That is, the actions (oft called "miracles") actually occurred as presented and actually (to a high level of significance) demonstrate supernatural/God-level events.

Points 1 and 2 are easily conceded and proven as historical as Jesus was a common name. Points 3 through 7 all require a credible proof presentation.

Jesus was resurrected from death which provides eternal salvation in an afterlife via blood sacrifice (some form of propitiation and substitutionary/vicarious atonement)

The narratives within the canon Torah presenting the actual utterances of the Lord God YHWH are accurate

The narratives within the canon Gospels presenting the actual utterances of Jesus are accurate

Paul/Saul telepathically communicated with The Christ and received the revealed Word and accurately documented this Word in the various missives attributed to Paul/Saul

Saints can receive spoken and inner monologue telepathically sent prayers of petition/intervention/supplication and intervene on the supernatural Deity level to present these prayers to YHWH

The Transubstantiational Eucharist is in actual reality the substance of body and blood of Christ (whilst retaining the appearance of bread and wine)
Hopeful
 

Re: Do you accept these beliefs?

Postby jimwalton » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:51 pm

First of all, this is a long list to deal with in one post!

Second, Jesus was asked twice "What must I do to have eternal life?" I'll guarantee you that his answer wasn't a list of 30 items. These things are not all necessary for salvation (necessary to be a Christian).

Jesus basically replied with a four-fold answer:

1\. Love God with all that you are
2\. Love your neighbor
3\. Do God’s will by obeying his moral commands
4\. Be willing, if he asks, to drop everything and leave it behind to follow him

Granted that some of those require contingent foundations (such as belief in YHWH). So let's get to your specific questions, assuming I have room to comment on all of them.

> יהוה/YHWH/Yahweh exists

Yeah. Essential.

> Satan

Belief in Satan isn't necessary for salvation, and I don't even agree with all of this. Not convinced Satan is an angel. We don't really know what kind of entity he is. But I believe he exists.

> The construct of monotheistic Yahwehism is true

Yes, essential.

> The construct of the Trinity

Yes, essential. If Jesus isn't God, the whole house collapses.

> YHWH as creator

It's a solid biblical teaching. If a Christian didn't believe this, he's be disregarding foundational theology.

> God is necessary or required for cosmo-genesis. Other mechanisms are not.

Agreed. Foundational.

> YHWH... events/effects/interactions/causation

Yes. Has to. To deny this is to deny almost all biblical teachings.

> Any mechanisms, except for YHWH actualized intervention, are incapable of producing non-life to life transition.

Agreed.

> YHWH actualized, with cognitive purpose within this universe, the transition from non-life to life

I agree with this, too.

> YHWH actualized, with cognitive purpose, the eventual evolution of homo sapiens

I agree with this, but it's not essential for salvation, that's for sure.

> Free will (in some form other than illusion) exists

Yes. Essential.

> from the creator YHWH that, at a minimum, has attributes of perfect knowledge of the results of YHWH's own cognitive actions and is the universe creator (i.e., Yahweh has purposeful knowledge of, and is the cause of, all actualization)

This is tricky. I'm not ready to subscribe to this without further discussion and explanation.

> Mind-body dualism (i.e., a soul), or something similar, exists

This is not essential. I know Christians who are monists.

> Heaven exists

It depends what you mean by this. "Heaven" is merely where God is. I believe our afterlife will be on a reconciled and regenerated earth.

> Prayers of petition/intervention/supplication are positively answered by Yahweh

They are at times, and at other times not. But, yeah, this is part of what we believe.

> The actualizations of purpose of YHWH, as presented in the Torah and Bible, represents reality

It depends what you mean by this. It would take more explanation and more discussion.

> The revelations of YHWH, as presented in the Torah and Bible, are historical actualizations of the Word of God

It depends what you mean by this. It would take more explanation and more discussion.

> An Objective Morality, linked to the revelations and authority of YHWH, exists

I believe there is an objective morality, but it's tied to the nature of God, not fundamentally to his revelations and authority,.

> Abraham and Moses/Moshe existed (historically

I believe they were historical, but I don't consider this to be necessary for salvation.

> Jesus existed historically.

Yes. Essential.

> via the secular narratives of canon scriptures

I have no idea what you mean by this.

> Jesus actually spoke the words attributed to him and the words were recorded accurately.

Jesus spoke in Aramaic, and the Gospels are written in Greek, so most of the time we don't have his actual words. But we have what he spoke.

> Jesus performed the non-divine actions attributed to him (ex., fasted 40 days in the desert).

I agree.

> The miracles actually occurred as presented and actually (to a high level of significance) demonstrate supernatural/God-level events.

Yes. I agree.

> Jesus was resurrected from death which provides eternal salvation in an afterlife via blood sacrifice

Yes. Essential.

> The narratives within the canon Torah presenting the actual utterances of the Lord God YHWH are accurate

> The narratives within the canon Gospels presenting the actual utterances of Jesus are accurate

They're accurate, but for the most part we don't have his actual words, so this wording is a bit of a trick.

> Paul/Saul telepathically communicated with The Christ...

Telepathically? No. It's a lousy term to describe what was going on.

> Saints can receive spoken and inner monologue telepathically sent prayers of petition/intervention/supplication and intervene on the supernatural Deity level to present these prayers to YHWH

No, as I think I understand what you may be saying.

> The Transubstantiational Eucharist

No. Not at all.

The total list is a fairly accurate representation of some of the things we believe. Any systematic theology book would be much more thorough, obviously. But Christians of different theologies could be just as much "saved" as the next Christian with a different theology. There is a core of essentials (you've hit on some of them) necessary for true salvation.
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Re: Do you accept these beliefs?

Postby Hopeful » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:36 pm

> I believe our afterlife will be on a reconciled and regenerated earth.

This is a fascinating belief. I've never heard this one before. Can you tell me more about this?

Also, do you still believe in environmental protection? It terrifies me that some people don't care about the environment because they think that Jesus will come back within their lifetime and usher us all into the kingdom of God, so who cares about this world; this is a shocking/terrifying belief that I have heard from some evangelicals.
Hopeful
 

Re: Do you accept these beliefs?

Postby jimwalton » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:57 pm

> "I believe our afterlife will be on a reconciled and regenerated earth" ... Fascinating. Can you tell me more?

Sure. Heaven is a spiritual realm that is not tainted by sin and is where God's presence dwells. The Bible only ever discusses heaven in abstract and metaphorical terms because it's not exactly something we can easily understand. It's very different from our physical world. It is not a place, exactly. It's not a part of our universe. And it doesn't "contain" God. Heaven was created by God just as our universe was.

Heaven is usually mentioned in the Bible in one of two ways. On one hand, it's a place that God rules from. The main idea is that God's presence and righteousness is there in full force. Jesus often talked about God's kingdom coming to Earth. We see heaven as a place that is already entirely God's kingdom. And he is always being worshiped there, by angels. So then Heaven is also seen as sort of an ideal place. It's synonymous with God's kingdom in a more general sense. That's why we say something like "Heaven come to Earth." Heaven and Earth are entirely separate. The point is that God's kingdom is coming to Earth. And in this same sense, Heaven is also used as a place that we want to go in the afterlife. (There's a lot of this in the Bible. See uses of "Zion" for a similar concept.) It's not a place, per se, but where God is.

The truth is, Biblically speaking, Heaven is NOT our ultimate destination. There's this idea that Jesus didn't come to lead us away from Earth and off to Heaven. He died physically and was raised back to life as something new... but still physical. Revelation talks about how there will be a New Heaven and New Earth in the end, that God will dwell here on Earth just as he dwells in Heaven, and that we will live (in resurrected bodies like Jesus') in New Earth (Rev. 21.1-4). So the common equivalency between Heaven and the afterlife is a bit of a mistake. Heaven was being used in this sense to refer to God's kingdom in general, but it became twisted into this idea that we would just leave Earth and spend eternity in Heaven. That's not biblical. There is some evidence in the Bible which suggests that the souls of God's people dwell in Heaven between the time of death and New Earth. But we can only really guess what's going on there. Our ultimate destination is a new (perfected in some way, but still physical) Earth.

Summarizing, in the OT, heaven was a throne on top of the dome that they called the firmament, and God sat on that throne. By the time we get to the Gospels, Jesus speaks of it as the place where God rules over his kingdom—a more abstract reference than anything we see in the OT. By the time we get to Revelation, heaven is the "ideal" place where God, his purposes, his people, and eternity merge. God's people will spend eternity on a renewed earth, not "in heaven".

> Also, do you still believe in environmental protection?

Absolutely. "Who cares about this world" is a shocking belief, I agree, and is unbiblical. God's command to subdue the earth in Genesis 1.28 is a scientific mandate: to advance civilization and to regulate natural forces. It implies a degree of control and direction over nature. We are expected to examine, learn, and control with responsibility to enhance life. It neither means that we're supposed to protect nature from human intrusion or to tame all wilderness. It is up to us to find the balance and maintain it. To abuse nature is an abdication of the responsibility we've been given. The verb "subdue" doesn't mean that we have the right to ruin or destroy. We're supposed to harness natural resources, be good stewards of the world's resources, and subdue the earth in Godlike manner, viz., with reason and responsibility. We are stewards of the earth, not owners of it. This world is not ours to dispose of as we will, but it has been put in our charge to manage for its owner, God.

If I go on vacation and arrange for someone else to live in my house, to take care of things, bring in the mail, and watch the dog, I give them freedom to go anywhere in the house, eat my food, watch what they want on TV. It's still my house, but I give them charge of it and use of its benefits. If I come home and find that there's food everywhere, the dog is dead, the windows are broken, I consider that a horror. Those who claim the support of their Bible for their self-indulgent rape of the environment are no different than the Crusaders, Inquisitioners, Nazis, and White Supremacists who exploit the Bible in order to justify their own, anti-biblical agendas. By caring for the earth we show respect and honor for what is God's.

Romans 8.19ff. implies that we are instruments of God in the world to save the environment. God has called us to rescue creation, if nothing else, from ourselves. In Christian theology, the earth is the Lord's. The universe wasn't created for us, but to declare the glory of God—to declare his majesty. If we let the earth become a trash can and an environmental disaster, we have blasphemed because we are interfering in the worship of God. When I experience nature I feel a reverence for God in a unique way. Pollution and extinction interfere with worship.

As you've said, many Christians don't care about the earth because they think that Jesus will come back soon. But that's exactly opposite of the Bible's teachings. We care for the environment precisely because God will create a new earth. In theology, our present life is sort of like an engagement (a promise about a future of intimate relationship), and eternity is like the wedding (Rev. 19.7-9). When a guy gives a girl an engagement ring, it's a pledge of a promise, but it's not the wedding ring. Our present existence is like the engagement period, and the fullness of the kingdom is like the wedding. Our present environment is God's gift to us. It isn't all that will be when the "wedding" comes, but it's still valuable and meaningful, like an engagement ring. No bride-to-be thinks the engagement ring is stupid and worthless because it's only an engagement ring. We take care of the earth because it's God gift to us. If we are looking toward heaven, we don't want to wreck and earth and waste its valuable resources. It's not a limitless and ever-healing planet. If we're not careful, we will ruin life for the future. We have no idea who long it will be until Jesus returns. We must be scientifically astute, ecologically responsible, and tempered in our use of resources. If we care about people, we care about the earth.


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