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How do we know there's a God? What is he like?

Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby Grenade Pants » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:14 pm

Seriously. If you had proof that god is a rapist, would you still worship him? I'm not trying to troll. I'd like to hear some opinions for personal reasons.
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby Dillardo » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:19 pm

I keep trying to start a response, and I'm not sure how. This is an impossible question, because "rapist" and "God the Father" cannot be applied together. I would say if there was "proof" of this, that the "god" who was a rapist wouldn't be the "God" of Christianity.
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby Korahm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:22 pm

Agreed, this is a bit like the old question "If God can do anything, can God create a rock so heavy he can't lift it?" It's a nonsense question because it is a logical impossibility. God being omnipotent doesn't mean he can do "anything" in the sense the question is trying to pose, it means he has the power and ability to do anything that it is possible for him to do.

Similarly in this case you have a logical impossibility. The God that is revealed in the Bible, that historically Jews and Christians worship, is defined as perfectly good, sinless, and righteous. Rape is a sinful act. Therefore, God can not perform rape. I'm not saying that if (theoretically, somehow) God were to commit a rape we would just brush it off and say "well it's not really rape because God can't sin", I'm saying confidently that the God revealed in Holy Scripture can not and would not ever commit such an act at all, ever.
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby jimwalton » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:24 pm

You've posed a self-contradictory, absurd question that is unanswerable. It's like asking, "If you had proof that squares were really circles, would you still be able to find the corner?" It doesn't make any sense. It goes against the definitions of what these things are. God is good by nature, and so all evil (like rape) is impossible for him. And since rape is a sexual act and God is asexual as well as nonmaterial, the question has no reference point and no reason within it. I might as well ask, "If you were not who you are, but still you, would you be the same while being different?"
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby Nana S » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:25 pm

I have proof God is a Rapist. Rape in the definition of "violent seizure, abuse or violation." Mark 15:34-35. “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

You see, God abused Jesus. He used him. I refer to him as the Butcher. Why? Because he raised Jesus for slaughter.

God offers us unconditional love, but only after he rapes us. Mankind is his to abuse. He asked Abraham to kill his own son. God is not the being people think he is. He may not be on the side of "evil" but what he does to humans in order to fight His War against "evil" is truly sadistic.
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby jimwalton » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:46 pm

You are mistaken about just about everything you have written. The definition you have chosen to focus on ("violent seizure, abuse or violation") is the metaphorical one. We take our knowledge of sexual abuse by predation and power, violating the dignity and humanity of another person, and we apply that metaphorically to abusive disregard and domineering in another situation, such as the land (no one actually rapes land).

And in that sense you are totally mistaken or misinformed about the Christian God. In Mark 15.34 Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" This is no statement of abuse or violation, for sure. First of all, Jesus is speaking prophetically, referring to Psalm 22 and its prophesies about crucifixion. He is illustrating the depth of his suffering for the sins of the world, which he took upon himself willingly (John 10.11-18). Jesus understands his divine mission to place himself in the hands of death and to be the object of God's wrath in our place (2 Corinthians 5.21; Galatians 3.3). God didn't "abuse" or "violate" Jesus. It was the implementation of a plan from the beginning of time to redeem humanity.

> God used Jesus

No less than 5 times in John 10.11-18 Jesus says he went to the cross willingly. Hebrews 12.2 says that Jesus sacrificed himself with a sense of joy because he knew what the outcome would be (redemption of people) for the sacrifice he was making. No, you are wrong in your accusation. God didn't use Jesus, violate him, rape him.

> God offers us unconditional love, but only after he rapes us. Mankind is his to abuse.

There is no biblical truth and no accurate understanding of the Bible in this statement. There is no misuse and abuse of humans to whom he is offering His love.

> He asked Abraham to kill his own son.

This is a misunderstanding of the text. Both God and Abraham knew he was not asking for child sacrifice, but was testing his faith. Abraham knew he would be returning with the boy (Genesis 22.5). There was child sacrifice in that culture, but this isn't it. Child sacrifices would have been done shortly after birth, and they would have been associated with fertility rituals or foundation offerings to secure protection for the home. There are many other evidences that this is not about child sacrifice.

> God is not the being people think he is.

This might be true. He's obviously not the being you think he is. God is love. He is just. He is holy. He is a God of grace, forgiveness, and mercy.

> what he does to humans in order to fight His War against "evil" is truly sadistic.

This is not true of the God of the Bible. And if you still think so, we should talk more.
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby Nana S » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:45 pm

No I am not Mistaken. Not at all. It is YOU who is mistaken. The proof is all around in his creation, yet you choose to believe what you want to believe. That God is just and God is all good. You want this to be true but it simply is not.

You're analysis of the word rape as semantics is dumbfounding. For example if the land was "raped by the drought", then the word rape still describes what happened to the land. Look up the definition of Rape.

Tell me something simple, how does a Hierarchy work? In a Hierarchy, there are levels and each level ascending the Hierarchy supersedes the previous in both authority and power. And so are the different levels of heaven and the different Angels and then ultimately god. So god tells the varying angels what to do and so on down the hierarchy. So tell me where do you land on this Hierarchy? What makes you think god won't tell you what to do, if he is directing his own angels? What makes you think god won't use you for some purpose if needs to get something done, that's how management works whether you like it or not. There is no way around a hierarchy.

Your justification of Mark 15:34 is exactly that, a justification. In the movie the "Passion of the Christ", which I believe went to great lengths to be accurate, God tells Jesus that he must be crucified. To which Jesus becomes extremely shaken and fearful, and expresses he doesn't want to. But god tells him he has to.

You see, this is a hierarchy works, no matter how you put.

The truth is that only kool-aid drinkers, which is the majority of people, attribute God to everything good and never see his entire creation for ALL that it is. Yes, I'll agree that there is evil and the devil causing pain and suffering but God also uses people in his war against evil.

The greatest thing I hate about god is that he lies to us.

Have you ever heard saying "if you the want the sunshine, tolerate the ran?" Is this not God's creation? If god wants the praise he should also take the blame, and these are his own rules, not mine. Yet no one has the courage to see him for his actions. You want god to be someone he simply is not.

Tell me something, when a company fails what does a Good Leader do? He takes responsibility. He says the company has failed and I will take responsibility. Has God ever taken responsibility for his Creation? For any of the suffering in his creation? He will Blame Angel, he will Blame a Priest, he will Blame You but God will never say, "This is my creation, let me take responsibility".

Why would I follow a leader who refuses to take responsibility for his creation? What kind of a leader is that?
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby jimwalton » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:14 pm

This seems like quite the rant, but I'm still willing to dialogue. We get our information about God from two places: First and primarily from the Bible, secondarily and only indirectly from nature. The Bible is where and how God has chosen to reveal the truth about Himself to us. It is in the Bible where He explains how He reveals Himself in nature, in history, in our consciences, and sometimes in our lives.

Rape is a sexual word pertaining to one human's sexual predation and abuse of another. We also take this word and use it metaphorically and figurative to speak of other abusive situations, such as a land being "raped" by drought. There is no suggestion, hint, inference, or teaching in the Bible that God rapes people, either literally or figuratively. The burden of proof is on you to provide the evidence of your accusation.

You have correctly identified how a hierarchy works. As far as different levels of heaven, there are no hierarchies of heaven, but of course there are hierarchies of beings. God (obviously) is at the top. After that, your analysis gets a little shaky. The Bible says that human are lower than the angels (Ps. 8.5) but also that we will judge angels (1 Cor. 6.3). But just because God has sovereignty and authority over us doesn't require or even mean that he abuses us. God tells me what to do, and I have a choice as to whether or not to obey or submit. If I choose to do what He asks or guides, I do it willingly. So of course I don't deny hierarchy, but I certainly deny abuse, and definitely deny rape. It's just not a biblical idea let alone true.

As to Mark 15.34, what Jesus meant by it has to be interpreted, since the Bible doesn't explain what Jesus meant by it. But I certainly get my interpretations of the text from the Bible itself, not from movies. However Gibson chose to portray Christ was his choice, but that doesn't mean that's the way it was. We have to interpret the Bible by using the Bible, not by claiming that movies have any authority in that regard.

> The greatest thing I hate about god is that he lies to us.

I would be pleased to continue talking about this with you. Where has God lied to us?

> Have you ever heard saying "if you the want the sunshine, tolerate the ran?" Is this not God's creation?

Sure I've heard the saying, and it does apply to God's creation. It's illegitimate, however, to extrapolate that to the character of God as if God, then, is able to be impugned by "his own rules." We know that life has goods and bads, ups and downs, blessings and suffering, but that doesn't mean any of those attributes apply to God. The "bads...downs...and suffering" are the result of sin and apply to humanity, not to the character of God.

> Tell me something, when a company fails what does a Good Leader do? He takes responsibility.

Right.

> Has God ever taken responsibility for his Creation?

Absolutely. He devised a plan to redeem it and reconcile it to himself. He devised a plan to save humanity from its sin and guilt. He sacrificed himself to make the plan operative. He takes responsibility all the time, but he doesn't take the blame. We are to blame for the problems of creation, not God. Blame belongs where blame is due—on the perpetrators of sin: HUMANS.
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby Nana S » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:11 pm

> He takes responsibility all the time, but he doesn't take the blame. We are to blame for the problems of creation, not God. Blame belongs where blame is due—on the perpetrators of sin: HUMANS.

You have exemplified the sign of an truly abused person. One who blames himself instead of the Perpetrator. God has fooled you into thinking everything is your fault. That is the sign of a true abuser, one who get's his victims to blame themselves.

I can read from your tone that you are generally a cheerful and content person. But I will also say you are naive. To me God is a sophist - he speaks colorfully but he doesn't say much. Therefore I prefer knowledge not only from the Bible but as you say, indirectly from nature as this is empirical. Look around we are part of the animal kingdom. We are free from being prey as in food but think of a pack of tigers that attack an elephant, kill it and eat it. This is very real, this is God's creation. This is how things really work, alpha & beta. Again if you know how a hierarchy works but you refuse to acknowledge how things are accomplished in a hierarchy I would say you are not willing to acknowledge the truth.

If there is a war going on between good and evil, who will fight this war on earth? How will God encourage those to fight evil? If he is willing to sacrifice Jesus, how important is your life? Why are you not so expendable?

The Bible is full unsavory passages, so if you want to reference the Bible, remember you have to take all the passages not just cherry pick.
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Re: Is God were a rapist, would you still worship him?

Postby jimwalton » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:03 pm

Thanks once again for your reply. I am well aware of the psychology where abused persons become the enablers for the abusers. I disagree radically with your flow of logic and your conclusion, however. It is very clear that humanity is not the righteous and innocent party in this equation, but the perpetrators of great evil. I see the actions of ISIS against many innocent people, the actions of a shooter in Las Vegas killing innocent people have an evening of enjoyment, drivers driving their vehicles into crowds of people minding their own business. You'll never convince me that God is the real abuser. I can see what goes on in the world, and the guilty party is obvious: HUMANITY.

> To me God is a sophist - he speaks colorfully but he doesn't say much.

Then please indulge me and read and study the Bible more deeply. Just as there is more to the world than meets the eye, there is far more to the Bible than there seems on the surface. Its depth is truly sublime, but only if you plumb its depths. It's like looking at the ocean and saying, "So what—it's a rippled plane of water."

> Look around we are part of the animal kingdom. We are free from being prey as in food but think of a pack of tigers that attack an elephant, kill it and eat it.

Yes we are. I agree with this. Nature has an ebb and flow, a balance, a hierarchy (food chain, pack hierarchies, etc.), and an interwoven system of both beauty and survival.

> if you know how a hierarchy works but you refuse to acknowledge how things are accomplished in a hierarchy

Of course I know how hierarchy works. We see it all around us, but it is not the only paradigm of nature, nor does it necessarily show itself in all aspects of nature. In the periodic table of the elements, different elements have different atomic structures, but that's not to say there is a hierarchy among them. Instead, we observe diversity that results in variation—but not hierarchy. So also with God. Just because hierarchy is a principle of some parts of life doesn't mean it's a principle of all parts of life. There are gravitational forces as well as electromagnetic forces. These are separate things but not hierarchical ones. As I said, just because God is sovereignly over us doesn't mean He is abusive.

> If there is a war going on between good and evil, who will fight this war on earth?

We fight the war every day. We are to choose the good and repress the evil. We are all to work for justice and peace, to reward the good and to punish the evil.

Ultimately, though, the war against sin was fought by Christ on the cross. He was the one who fought this war on the earth and won by his resurrection, conquering death and making it possible for us to find true goodness and true (eternal) life.

> How will God encourage those to fight evil?

God fought evil himself when he willingly laid down his life for our sins. Then he fills us with Himself (at our invitation) and fights evil both in us (to eradicate us of sin inside) and through us (to push back sin in society).

> If he is willing to sacrifice Jesus, how important is your life?

It's because our lives are so important that Jesus died in our place, so that we could be forgiven and set free. It was his love for us, because of our value to him (Romans 5.8) that led him to die in substitution for us.

> Why are you not so expendable?

No one is expendable. We are all precious. Even Jesus was cherished and valuable (1 Peter 2.4-12).

> The Bible is full unsavory passages, so if you want to reference the Bible, remember you have to take all the passages not just cherry pick.

I do take them all. I don't cherry pick. Many of the unsavory passages of the Bible are because God has to deal with the perpetrators of sin (us) and clean up our messes in His constant effort to redeem humanity.


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