Board index ‹ Assorted Bible Questions

[Isaac the Man]

This is on my mind mostly because of the aftermath of the Florida shooting. Perhaps some of you have seen this video: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/14/us/cnn-phil-mudd-breaks-down-mass-shooting-florida-high-school-cnntv/index.html (a news commentator breaks down on tv saying "A child of God is dead.")

If you believe in heaven, why would it matter if a person dies at 16 or 80? If you are going to exist in heaven for an infinite amount of time, eventually the number of years you spend on Earth will be irrelevant. Yeah, the family are going to grieve, but that's something that is inevitable. Everyone is going to grieve death at some point, whether it comes by natural illness or murder.

Another news item I saw recently was that an anti-abortion man drove a stolen truck into an abortion clinic. I'm not really sure what Christians believe about the souls of unborn babies; do you think they aren't going to heaven because they never got to accept Jesus as their savoir? If so I can understand being upset about abortion. But generally it seems like Christians don't believe that. If you kill a baby before it can become an adult, that means that baby will never sin, it will never become an atheist, it would never risk losing its place in heaven. Why would that bother a Christian?

[jimwalton]

> Why does death bother Christians?

First of all, we don't know if the news commentator was a Christian, and what his or her religious beliefs are, and what his perspective on the afterlife is.

Second, death isn't to be welcomed for its own sake, though it has an immediate benefit of being with God (2 Cor. 5.6-9). God created us to be livers of life and givers of life (Gen. 1.28). Psalm 116.8-9 implies that we should walk in the land of the living as long as possible, to be salt and light for humanity (Matt. 5.13-16).

Third, death is a tragic result of sin ruining our world, and the separation and sometimes pain it causes are reasons for grief.

Lastly, we certainly don't regard the death of other believers as normal humans do, because death is a transition to the presence of Jesus, not a cessation (except physically). We don't grieve as other people do. Our grief is different. My father died two years ago. I miss his friendship and wisdom. But I know he's in the presence of Jesus, so I am only feeling his absence. I'm not sad for his state of being.

> The souls of the aborted

Yes, we believe that the souls of the aborted go to heaven. Why would it bother us? Because the ends don't justify the means, especially in this particular case. The brutal murder by abortion of children just to send them to heaven is barbaric. It's abhorrent to say, "I love humanity so much I will kill them all." The logic may be straight forward, but the thinking is skewed by immorality. It's a contradiction to kill in order to give life.

[Isaac the Manc]

> The brutal murder by abortion of children just to send them to heaven is barbaric.

Why is it barbaric? Why is it bad?

> It's a contradiction to kill in order to give life.

How? If you live forever in heaven, how is it a contradiction?

[jimwalton]

> Why is it barbaric? Why is it bad?

Because humans have dignity and value. Human life has a sacred element to it, and to murder just to murder (so they can go to heaven) is a monstrous devaluation of life.

> How? If you live forever in heaven, how is it a contradiction?

Because taking life to give life is like saying A = non-A, and it's a contradiction. It's like saying, "Well, sometimes good things can come out of pain and suffering in life, so I'll make you suffer so something good can arise." It not only doesn't make sense, it's cruel.

[Isaac the Manc]

Ok, here is something I take issue with.

You are using the word "life" to mean "alive on Earth." If someone is conscious and capable of thought and emotion, I think that counts as being "alive."

If you are in heaven you exist and you are conscious. That's alive. Killing someone does not take their life, as in it does not end their existence. It does take away opportunities they would have on Earth, but that's different from actually ending someone's existence.

[jimwalton]

Don't take too much issue with it. As Christians we believe death is just a transition from one mode of life to another. But they are different modes of life. "Alive on earth" is a different reality than life after death. There is consciousness both before death (duh) and after, but even that is different. After death will bring quite an enhanced consciousness (1 Corinthians 13.12; 1 John 3.2).

You're right that killing someone doesn't take their life in one sense. But in another it does. (Not to be offending, but that must be obvious to you.) I agree that "It does take away opportunities they would have on Earth, but that's different from actually ending someone's existence." Still, life on earth has its place, it has its value, it has a function, and it has its dignity. We never cavalierly deprive someone of that. God has instructed us that aside from certain justice scenarios (capital punishment, just war), it is never our call or our place to take a life (meaning to end someone's physical existence on earth).

[Fat Cat]

Great answer. To add to this, Romans 6 addresses the fallacy in "if sin is met with a lot of grace, more sin = more grace, we should sin more" which is linked to your last point.