Board index ‹ The Problem of Evil and Suffering

[Scape211]

Have you ever had a discussion with someone who is an antinatalist? This is essentially someone who believes there is no net advantage of being born. Normally this would be associated with someone who does not believe in God since He would normally be the one who dictates worth/value of us all in the grand scheme. However, its a view thats not often associated specifically with any belief system.

Antinatalism is essentially aligned with the idea of 'wish I were never born' mentality so it inherently is perceived as negative and in that sense rejected since most of us would rather be alive than dead. However, this view is more so taking the moral position that procreation is generally bad since there is more net harm than good to a given person/being and we should do what is morally right. This in that sense can work since you aren't really making a moral choice for someone as at that point they do not exist. I'm sure there are more ins and outs to it all, but its new to me and has had a resurgence recently due to the author David Benatar who generally talks about the asymmetry between pleasure and pain.

Much of this falls under the umbrella of the Problem of Evil we often encounter, but seems to do it from a different angle. Most times I try to counter this a few ways:

1 - David Benatars separation of pleasure and pain are not a clear indication of right and wrong. Some areas we experience pain are not due to morality so we cant always claim pain is bad morally. It may just be an unintended outcome of a specific goal.

2 - Pre-existence in antinatalism is inherently seen as negative. But since its pre-existence, shouldn't this be considered neutral? If that is the case, why does this view skew a bias towards negative and deem birth a loss? If God worked like this (knowing we would step into original sin) then nothing would exist.

3 - Being humans who don't know the entire ripple effects of everything. And with that, its presumptuous to always assume we as a whole experience more bad then good. And as you have discussed previously in other threads evil can be acceptable as long as there is a possibility for good.

4 - The 'end game' for extreme antinatalism is extinction. This is something we regularly fight against with other species due to it being considered damaging to our ecosystem and morally wrong. So if we are trying to act morally through antinatalism, but the end result could be considered immoral how can this be the correct path? Some would say not all antinatalists think the end goal is extinction. Some just think its important to consider limiting procreation. And if that is the case, we already have methods of protection that people can choose to use or not. But if we are forcing people to use protection when we deem it important to regulate, we are again turning this into a moral truth to impose on others. That said, I don't quite understand what the goal of antinatalism brings other than a title one would give themselves.

However I'm curious to hear if you have come into contact with antinatalists, what they have said to you and how your discussions and counter arguments have gone.

[jimwalton]

WOW, I've never heard of this. Your points of refutation seem good, however. It's quite a position of despair and obviously one of a non-believer, since life in Christ gives not only worth but purpose. It's hard to imagine someone going through life with this kind of hopelessness. It shows so strongly the need for the gospel.

[Scape211]

WOW, I've never heard of this. Your points of refutation seem good, however. It's quite a position of despair and obviously one of a non-believer, since life in Christ gives not only worth but purpose. It's hard to imagine someone going through life with this kind of hopelessness. It shows so strongly the need for the gospel.

I completely agree. It was the first time I heard of it and the person I have been talking to seems to be coming from a place of anger. They seem to reject God for a vast number of reasons which I believe I have given good counter arguments for. However, they still seem justified in their anger. I fear it may be time for me to dust off my sandals and move on.

[jimwalton]

> I fear it may be time for me to dust off my sandals and move on.

I agree. Until this person gets to the point where they are so empty and meaningless that they are motivated to find some kind of hope and purpose in life, you probably can't help them. As every counselor knows, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. You can show people the light, but they're not open to it until they are too fearful and injured by the darkness. Jesus Himself encountered many people of dark and closed minds; He moved on.