Can someone explain why certain Psalms do not align with Jesus' teachings? For example, imprecatory Psalms asking God to hurt people do not follow Jesus' commandment to turn the other cheek.
Is this more of a record of the psalmist's feelings rather than a model of how we should act?
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Re: Imprecatory Psalms
by jimwalton » Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:43 pm
The imprecatory psalms are certain not models of how we should think or act. We take them as prophetic: the man of God judging the enemies of God, as God Himself will do one day. It's more the voice of inspired righteous judgment rather than showing us how to think about people or treat them.
The reason they are so different from Jesus's teachings is that Jesus came not to judge, but to save (Jn. 3.17). His time of judgment will come later (Jn. 5.22).
The reason they are so different from Jesus's teachings is that Jesus came not to judge, but to save (Jn. 3.17). His time of judgment will come later (Jn. 5.22).
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Re: Imprecatory Psalms
by Canada Real » Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:36 pm
I wrestle with imprecatory psalms sometimes, specifically in light of what I see currently in the world but can't we also have 'righteous judgment' consistent with that which the Psalmists and prophets have? I am not sure that the best hermeneutic sees such a strong discontinuity here. I think it is harmful to view them as a license for violence (not merely physical) but I think we have the freedom to say 'this ain't right, God please do something even if it is drastic.' I think this makes better sense of the implications of imprecatory psalms, than the 'they did it but we can't.'
Secondly, context matters, John 3:16-21 is loaded with condemnation/judgment (krinw) language. Read v18 or 19 instead of proof-texting. Willful disbelief puts you under judgment.
Secondly, context matters, John 3:16-21 is loaded with condemnation/judgment (krinw) language. Read v18 or 19 instead of proof-texting. Willful disbelief puts you under judgment.
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Re: Imprecatory Psalms
by jimwalton » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:48 pm
> I wrestle with imprecatory psalms sometimes
I think it's both fair and honest to say we all do.
> specifically in light of what I see currently in the world but can't we also have 'righteous judgment' consistent with that which the Psalmists and prophets have?
The Bible is quite clear (and this is what the book of Job is about) that the world doesn't work according to the retribution principle—that idea that good people get rewarded in this life and bad people get punished in this life. Instead, God runs the world by His wisdom, not by retribution. The result of that is that sometimes good people get the shaft and bad people seem to have the good life. It's also what the short book of Habakkuk (3 chapters) is about.
Instead, God reserves "righteous judgment" for the afterlife, and that's when people will get what they deserve (2 Cor. 5.10; Rev. 20.12-13).
> I think it is harmful to view them as a license for violence (not merely physical) but I think we have the freedom to say 'this ain't right, God please do something even if it is drastic.'
I've never met anyone who views the imprecatory psalms as a license for violence, but hey, we all know there are all types, unfortunately. There is also no evidence that David himself ever followed through with such behavior. He seems to have realized, presumably, that they were prophetic and not meant for our behavior. Most of such psalms are also clear that David was leaving the retribution in God's hands (such as Ps. 35.1-2ff.).
I also think it's fair for us to pray that God do something about these awful situations. We see some of those right now in our political turmoil, both Washington, D.C. and on the streets of a number of cities.
> I think this makes better sense of the implications of imprecatory psalms, than the 'they did it but we can't.'
As I mentioned, I'm not aware of any evidence that even they "did it." They prayed that God would do it.
> Secondly, context matters, John 3:16-21 is loaded with condemnation/judgment (krinw) language. Read v18 or 19 instead of proof-texting. Willful disbelief puts you under judgment.
Yes, but that's not why Jesus came. That judgment that your willful belief puts you under is final judgment, not judgment in this life. The Jews were expecting a Messiah who would come to judge and punish the Gentile world. John is telling us that Jesus Messiah has not come as a conquering judge, even though the Messiah does judge the world of humanity (Mt. 25.31ff; Jn. 5.27; 9.39).
> Read v18 or 19 instead of proof-texting.
You don't need to slap my hand. I'm not proof-texting. Willful disbelief puts you under judgment, for sure, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already, as a matter of one's sinful state. The unbeliever doesn't have to wait under Judgment Day to be under judgment; he or she is condemned already because we are born in sin.
I think it's both fair and honest to say we all do.
> specifically in light of what I see currently in the world but can't we also have 'righteous judgment' consistent with that which the Psalmists and prophets have?
The Bible is quite clear (and this is what the book of Job is about) that the world doesn't work according to the retribution principle—that idea that good people get rewarded in this life and bad people get punished in this life. Instead, God runs the world by His wisdom, not by retribution. The result of that is that sometimes good people get the shaft and bad people seem to have the good life. It's also what the short book of Habakkuk (3 chapters) is about.
Instead, God reserves "righteous judgment" for the afterlife, and that's when people will get what they deserve (2 Cor. 5.10; Rev. 20.12-13).
> I think it is harmful to view them as a license for violence (not merely physical) but I think we have the freedom to say 'this ain't right, God please do something even if it is drastic.'
I've never met anyone who views the imprecatory psalms as a license for violence, but hey, we all know there are all types, unfortunately. There is also no evidence that David himself ever followed through with such behavior. He seems to have realized, presumably, that they were prophetic and not meant for our behavior. Most of such psalms are also clear that David was leaving the retribution in God's hands (such as Ps. 35.1-2ff.).
I also think it's fair for us to pray that God do something about these awful situations. We see some of those right now in our political turmoil, both Washington, D.C. and on the streets of a number of cities.
> I think this makes better sense of the implications of imprecatory psalms, than the 'they did it but we can't.'
As I mentioned, I'm not aware of any evidence that even they "did it." They prayed that God would do it.
> Secondly, context matters, John 3:16-21 is loaded with condemnation/judgment (krinw) language. Read v18 or 19 instead of proof-texting. Willful disbelief puts you under judgment.
Yes, but that's not why Jesus came. That judgment that your willful belief puts you under is final judgment, not judgment in this life. The Jews were expecting a Messiah who would come to judge and punish the Gentile world. John is telling us that Jesus Messiah has not come as a conquering judge, even though the Messiah does judge the world of humanity (Mt. 25.31ff; Jn. 5.27; 9.39).
> Read v18 or 19 instead of proof-texting.
You don't need to slap my hand. I'm not proof-texting. Willful disbelief puts you under judgment, for sure, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already, as a matter of one's sinful state. The unbeliever doesn't have to wait under Judgment Day to be under judgment; he or she is condemned already because we are born in sin.
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