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[Kill Us]

Did people not go to heaven before or have they not gone to hell since?

If not, what changed

[jimwalton]

Jesus's death made it possible for humans to have a restored relationship with our Creator. His death made it possible to actually forgive sins. The sacrifices in the Old Testament could only cover sins; it didn't really forgive sins or take them away. Jesus's death broke the power of sin and death and set us free from its grip. Because of His death, death no longer has a hold on any of us who believe. Its impact is earth-shaking.

> Did people not go to heaven before

No, they didn't. As far as we can tell their souls went to a sort of holding place. But the main import of Jesus's death is not to take those saints to Heaven. Instead, it's that He broke the power of death and sin and made it possible for people to be in God's presence (which is what Heaven really is).

> have they not gone to hell since?

People still go to hell, as far as we know. Jesus talked about that many times. Unless you give your life to the Son, Jesus, you are cast away from the presence of God. His gift of salvation from sin and death is available to all, but only those who take hold of it appropriate it. Those who reject the free gift remain in their sins.

[Scape211]

No, they didn't. As far as we can tell their souls went to a sort of holding place. But the main import of Jesus's death is not to take those saints to Heaven. Instead, it's that He broke the power of death and sin and made it possible for people to be in God's presence (which is what Heaven really is).

Huh.....thats very interesting. It makes me think of Samuel when he died and then appeared to Saul and the witch in En Dor (1 Samuel 28). Were souls in the OT around the earth in an immaterial form and at times would interact with people? Strange to think about since we dont really know....

[jimwalton]

There's never any indication that souls wander the Earth in some kind of non-material form. There's no indication in the Bible that people can communicate with the dead or that the dead communicate with us, though mediums make their living allegedly doing this.

The Witch of Endor narrative is not only highly unusual, it's completely unique. You'll notice that even the medium seems surprised and afraid of what is going on there (1 Sam. 28.12-13). Apparently it wasn't what she normally does and sees (the odds are that all such "communication" is fake anyway), and she was truly frightened when she was actually talking with an actual dead person. God raised up Samuel, in this instance, to give Saul a prophecy of judgment (vv. 17-19).

You'll also notice that in the story of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man is totally unable to visit or communicate with his brothers (Lk. 16.27-28). Nor does Father Abraham allow Lazarus to do it. It simply isn't done. And we also see there that the souls were being held in a holding place. It is generally believed that these souls were led to Heaven after Jesus's resurrection (Eph. 4.8-10), though that may not be correct either. It may be that all souls are in a temporary holding place until the first resurrection (Rev. 20.5-6). These things are not made explicitly clear, nor does it really matter. Frankly, when we die, we will be in the presence of Jesus, wherever it is, whether in a place of temporary holding until the first resurrection or in Heaven, waiting for the Revelation scene where even Heaven descends to Earth and we take up our final eternal residence in a restored, redeemed, and reconciled Earth (Rev. 21.2).

[Scape211]

> Did people not go to heaven before

No, they didn't. As far as we can tell their souls went to a sort of holding place. But the main import of Jesus's death is not to take those saints to Heaven. Instead, it's that He broke the power of death and sin and made it possible for people to be in God's presence (which is what Heaven really is).

I was thinking about this again recently and just the overall question of people of the OT who did not have the sacrifice of Jesus yet. When they die what happens? Are they in this holding place? Or are they released from the flow of time and instantly with God? Even though Jesus' sacrifice happened after their lifetime, they would then be in eternity with God, right? Or would they remain connected to time until the timeline of Jesus or the earth finishes? I know this is likely not an answerable question definitively—just an interesting thing to think about.

[jimwalton]

It's right that we don't really know the answer to this question, though some Christians would say we do. They usually point to the verse, "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5.8), but that's not what the verse says. The verse is really saying that we'd prefer to be with God than here on Earth, not necessarily that one is instantly with God at the point of death.

We know that the ancients believed in Sheol, a place of the dead that barely distinguished between the righteous and the unrighteous. It certainly wasn't our concept of Heaven and Hell. The understanding of such things in the OT is murky at best—and how could they understand? Jesus hadn't come and died yet. It would be weird if they knew all about Heaven and Hell, and knew they could get to Heaven by a godly life. If that were the case, then Jesus didn't need to die.

We also know about the resurrection from the dead, which we understand to be when our (dead) bodies are transformed and reunited with "us" (in what form up to that time?) for eternal existence. But what form is that? It's not the "spiritual body" that Paul speaks of in 1 Cor. 15. That's our eternal "body."

Some believe in soul sleep until the first resurrection, some don't. Some think as soon as we physically die we'll be with Jesus (in some form) until our bodily resurrection, and then we'll be with Jesus (in a different form) for eternity. But if it's soul sleep, we won't even be conscious of the passage of time (as in normal sleep now), so we'd think we died one minute and were with Jesus instantly anyway. It's not well understood. But frankly it doesn't matter. What matters is salvation, accountability, and eternity. I'll be glad to be with Jesus whenever, however.

Just as an appendix, however, there is no notion (that I see) in the Bible about any second chances after death (Lk. 13.22-29; Heb. 9.27), though that is debated also. There are theories about reconcilationism, semi-restorationism, modified eternalism, and annihilationism, all with some kind of scriptural backing. Some even believe in universalism.

One thing the Bible is perfectly clear about: God will be fair. Everyone will get what is exactly appropriate. God takes all kinds of things into account (access to information, moral state, environment, motives, etc.), and since He knows everything, He will make the absolute right decision and be perfectly fair with everyone. If He wants to save people somehow after death, it's not my place to complain (Mt. 20.15). As a matter of fact, ideally I should be thrilled that God has done that.

I can conclude with confidence with this statement: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. Though we can’t be sure about the form or duration of that separation, God will be fair about the form and duration of it. And He is doing everything possible to save as many as possible.