As I understand, Satan is an angel that tried to overstep or overthrow God and was kicked out.
This seems to indicate that sin is still possible in heaven, as well as suffering (for if Satan were not suffering from vice he would not have made the attempt). Do you think humans could still be subject to these weaknesses in heaven? If no, would we no longer have free will? If the answer is we would all choose to worship God when confronted personally with his power amd goodness, how do we explain Satan's action?
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Re: Nature of heaven, Satan's departure
by jimwalton » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:54 pm
> As I understand, Satan is an angel that tried to overstep or overthrow God and was kicked out.
Not necessarily so. This is the first questionable statement. This specifically comes from an old traditional interpretation of Isaiah 14.12-14, to which most biblical scholars and pastors no longer subscribe. It's a prophecy about the king of Tyre, which most biblical scholars now think pertains to—you guessed it—the king of Tyre. Throughout most of church history, these verses have been applied to Satan, but there is much opposition to this interpretation. Since applying the verses to Satan doesn't seem to fit with the author's intention or context, we would be hard pressed to sustain the suggestion that the passage refers to Satan. In other words, it's probably not true (and certainly cannot be confirmed) that Satan wanted to become God.
We are never told anything about the origin of Satan or how he got to be the way he is. Since God created everything good (meaning orderly and functional), we can assume Satan was at one time good. But we know nothing about his creation, his original state (what kind of being he was), or the circumstances or motives surrounding his becoming Satan. So I can't go with "Satan is an angel" since that is unknown, "that he tried to overstep or overthrow God," since that is unknown, or "was kicked out," since that is unknown.
Therefore your conclusion (sin is still possible in heaven) doesn't have a rung to step on, since we had to take away the whole ladder of premises.
As far as the nature of heaven...
> Do you think humans could still be subject to these weaknesses in heaven?
No, because humans are transformed into a new kind of existence (1 Cor. 15) and heaven is purged of any possibility of sin in heaven (if there ever was any) or of suffering in heaven (if there ever was any).
> If no, would we no longer have free will?
We will have voluntarily submitted our free will to the loving decisions of another. Just like when I say to my friend, "Hey, you pick out the movie tonight." It's not that I no longer have any free will, but rather that I have chosen to let somebody else make the decisions. So also in heaven. I have freely chosen to let God made the decisions.
> If the answer is we would all choose to worship God when confronted personally with his power amd goodness, how do we explain Satan's action?
No, not everyone who is confronted personally with God's power and goodness will choose to worship God. There are many on alive right now who have been made aware of God's power and goodness and they choose not to worship God. Even when people actually see him, face to face, they will choose to reject. As we are in life, so we will be after life. Evidence doesn't convince people now; evidence won't convince people then.
Not necessarily so. This is the first questionable statement. This specifically comes from an old traditional interpretation of Isaiah 14.12-14, to which most biblical scholars and pastors no longer subscribe. It's a prophecy about the king of Tyre, which most biblical scholars now think pertains to—you guessed it—the king of Tyre. Throughout most of church history, these verses have been applied to Satan, but there is much opposition to this interpretation. Since applying the verses to Satan doesn't seem to fit with the author's intention or context, we would be hard pressed to sustain the suggestion that the passage refers to Satan. In other words, it's probably not true (and certainly cannot be confirmed) that Satan wanted to become God.
We are never told anything about the origin of Satan or how he got to be the way he is. Since God created everything good (meaning orderly and functional), we can assume Satan was at one time good. But we know nothing about his creation, his original state (what kind of being he was), or the circumstances or motives surrounding his becoming Satan. So I can't go with "Satan is an angel" since that is unknown, "that he tried to overstep or overthrow God," since that is unknown, or "was kicked out," since that is unknown.
Therefore your conclusion (sin is still possible in heaven) doesn't have a rung to step on, since we had to take away the whole ladder of premises.
As far as the nature of heaven...
> Do you think humans could still be subject to these weaknesses in heaven?
No, because humans are transformed into a new kind of existence (1 Cor. 15) and heaven is purged of any possibility of sin in heaven (if there ever was any) or of suffering in heaven (if there ever was any).
> If no, would we no longer have free will?
We will have voluntarily submitted our free will to the loving decisions of another. Just like when I say to my friend, "Hey, you pick out the movie tonight." It's not that I no longer have any free will, but rather that I have chosen to let somebody else make the decisions. So also in heaven. I have freely chosen to let God made the decisions.
> If the answer is we would all choose to worship God when confronted personally with his power amd goodness, how do we explain Satan's action?
No, not everyone who is confronted personally with God's power and goodness will choose to worship God. There are many on alive right now who have been made aware of God's power and goodness and they choose not to worship God. Even when people actually see him, face to face, they will choose to reject. As we are in life, so we will be after life. Evidence doesn't convince people now; evidence won't convince people then.
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Re: Nature of heaven, Satan's departure
by Regnus Numis » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:42 pm
> Therefore your conclusion (sin is still possible in heaven) doesn't have a rung to step on, since we had to take away the whole ladder of premises.
In a previous post on a different thread, didn’t you mention that Jude 1:6 implied there were angels who sinned in Heaven?
In a previous post on a different thread, didn’t you mention that Jude 1:6 implied there were angels who sinned in Heaven?
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Re: Nature of heaven, Satan's departure
by jimwalton » Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:47 pm
I mentioned Jude 1.6, which mentions angels who sinned, but it's different from the point of the OP. It is widely regarded that Jude 1.6 is a reference to Genesis 6.1-2, a passage that is notoriously impossible to interpret, if not totally impossible for the time being. Gn. 6.2 uses the term בְנֵי-הָאֱלֹהִים ("sons of God"), a designation used elsewhere in the OT for angels (Job 1.6, 2.1; 38.7; Ps. 29.1; 82.6; 89.6; Dan. 3.25)—hence, the translation "angels" (Jude actually uses the word ἀγγέλους). Jude gives three examples of apostasy, one of which is "the angels." In the case of Genesis 6.1-2, the sin (whatever it was, and whoever was involved) happened on earth. So I was concluding that the angels sinned (Jude 1.6 says that), but not that sin was allowed in heaven.
Last bumped by Anonymous on Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:47 pm.
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