God knew all things in advance
He created humans knowing they would sin.
He's literally the root cause.
Dynamic systems can exist without natural disasters
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Re: Why should we worship God?
by jimwalton » Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:39 am
> God knew all things in advance
Correct. But knowledge is not causative. Because he can see around the corner doesn't mean he has caused.
> He created humans knowing they would sin.
Correct, and he instituted a plan to make it right. All one has to do is conform to the solution. Carmakers create vehicles they know will break down. So they make replacement parts and train servicemen. All you have to do is conform to the solution and you can keep your car humming for a long time.
Things breaking down is inevitable. What God creates is by necessity less than God, since God is, by definition, uncreated. Anything created is therefore vulnerable. That doesn't mean it was created poorly; it means it is not divine, and anything not divine is less than perfect, and therefore vulnerable. So God, knowing that humans were not divine, created a solution by which they could find life. All we need to do is conform to the solution. Bingo.
> He's literally the root cause.
This is a non sequitur. His knowledge is not causative, therefore he is not the root cause. He can't create something uncreated, and therefore he is not the root cause for human beings being less than unbreakable.
> Dynamic systems can exist without natural disasters
Prove it. Science would beg to differ. We know no such reality or have any such examples.
Correct. But knowledge is not causative. Because he can see around the corner doesn't mean he has caused.
> He created humans knowing they would sin.
Correct, and he instituted a plan to make it right. All one has to do is conform to the solution. Carmakers create vehicles they know will break down. So they make replacement parts and train servicemen. All you have to do is conform to the solution and you can keep your car humming for a long time.
Things breaking down is inevitable. What God creates is by necessity less than God, since God is, by definition, uncreated. Anything created is therefore vulnerable. That doesn't mean it was created poorly; it means it is not divine, and anything not divine is less than perfect, and therefore vulnerable. So God, knowing that humans were not divine, created a solution by which they could find life. All we need to do is conform to the solution. Bingo.
> He's literally the root cause.
This is a non sequitur. His knowledge is not causative, therefore he is not the root cause. He can't create something uncreated, and therefore he is not the root cause for human beings being less than unbreakable.
> Dynamic systems can exist without natural disasters
Prove it. Science would beg to differ. We know no such reality or have any such examples.
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Re: Why should we worship God?
by Belloch » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:56 pm
Alright. I want to live and love independently from having to include some sort of conscious powerful being which is usually defined as "god" in any shape or form.
Your water analogy makes it clear that god is supposedly the universe and existence itself. To be able to do or be anything you have to be "inside" god. Otherwise existence itself is simply not possible.
This is blackmailing.
What this also means is that to reject existence itself is to become nonexistent. How is that a punishment? Why do you theists have to refer to it as a punishment? You only cause unnecessary stress towards people by doing this.
I'm fine with living and loving beause I exist as part of the universe, but if that universe also happens to somehow be a conscious entity called "god" I find it morally dishonest to have anything to do with him. Especially if it is claimed that he is all good. If he was simply indifferent and had nothing to do with us that would be fine.
Your water analogy makes it clear that god is supposedly the universe and existence itself. To be able to do or be anything you have to be "inside" god. Otherwise existence itself is simply not possible.
This is blackmailing.
What this also means is that to reject existence itself is to become nonexistent. How is that a punishment? Why do you theists have to refer to it as a punishment? You only cause unnecessary stress towards people by doing this.
I'm fine with living and loving beause I exist as part of the universe, but if that universe also happens to somehow be a conscious entity called "god" I find it morally dishonest to have anything to do with him. Especially if it is claimed that he is all good. If he was simply indifferent and had nothing to do with us that would be fine.
- Belloch
Re: Why should we worship God?
by jimwalton » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:14 pm
> Alright. I want to live and love independently from having to include some sort of conscious powerful being which is usually defined as "god" in any shape or form.
That's like saying I want to dive in the pool but I don't want to get wet. God is the source and substance of life. You can't have life apart from God. You want love independently from God, but God is love, and apart from him there is no love. The reason we have love during our lives is because of what we call "common grace." God has invested characteristics of Himself in all of life for the benefit and blessing of all: we all get sunshine and rain, we all have experiences of love, grace, and mercy, we all get to see beautiful things. We all benefit from the orderliness and regularity of creation. These are gifts from God that we all share in common. But now you want love apart from God. It doesn't exist. It's like saying you want light apart from the suns of the universe. Sorry, there isn't any. It's not being cruel, it's the reality of things.
> Your water analogy makes it clear that god is supposedly the universe and existence itself. To be able to do or be anything you have to be "inside" god. Otherwise existence itself is simply not possible.
To some extent this is true. God is creator of all things, and He has put some of his attributes in creation. He is the one who sustains the universe by his power (Heb. 1.3). He is over all, through all, and in all (Eph. 4.6). This isn't blackmail, it's reality. The cosmos is His. He made it, He sustains it, and He pervades it. He gave us the Bible to reveal these things to us. Creation reflects the attributes of God (order, regularity, predictability, beauty, purpose, personality, splendor, and greatness) far more than they reflect the natural processes of chance, accident, and selection via an unintelligent process. The message of the Bible is that you need to open your eyes and your mind to see the truth and accept it. It's there to see, and billions of people have found it.
> What this also means is that to reject existence itself is to become nonexistent. How is that a punishment? Why do you theists have to refer to it as a punishment? You only cause unnecessary stress towards people by doing this.
We only refer to it that way because the Bible does. Since we subscribe to the Bible because the evidences are compelling, then we subscribe to the Bible for its theology as well.
> I'm fine with living and loving beause I exist as part of the universe
You're living on what I would call "borrowed capital." You're taking theistic ideas and living by them, even though you have no foundation to do so if you don't subscribe to theism. For instance, if we're just an agglomeration of chemicals, then we're just that and nothing more. We can't talk of right and wrong or purpose or meaning, because we're just chemicals that came about through unintelligent processes. If we're just bio-chemicals that evolved, then personality, purpose, and morality just don't make sense. They're not part of the system.
But you want the life and love part without the One who gave it to you. You admit to the life and love part when naturalism gives you no such thing.
> Especially if it is claimed that he is all good.
As I mentioned previously, those who see him as not good have been deceived by lousy exegesis and interpretation of Scripture and haven't dug deeply enough to discern the truth. We can talk more as you wish.
> If he was simply indifferent and had nothing to do with us that would be fine.
Yeah, but that's impossible. Since He is personal and He is love, it would be contrary to His nature to be indifferent and aloof. God can't be self-contradictory, as nothing can. It's the reality of things.
That's like saying I want to dive in the pool but I don't want to get wet. God is the source and substance of life. You can't have life apart from God. You want love independently from God, but God is love, and apart from him there is no love. The reason we have love during our lives is because of what we call "common grace." God has invested characteristics of Himself in all of life for the benefit and blessing of all: we all get sunshine and rain, we all have experiences of love, grace, and mercy, we all get to see beautiful things. We all benefit from the orderliness and regularity of creation. These are gifts from God that we all share in common. But now you want love apart from God. It doesn't exist. It's like saying you want light apart from the suns of the universe. Sorry, there isn't any. It's not being cruel, it's the reality of things.
> Your water analogy makes it clear that god is supposedly the universe and existence itself. To be able to do or be anything you have to be "inside" god. Otherwise existence itself is simply not possible.
To some extent this is true. God is creator of all things, and He has put some of his attributes in creation. He is the one who sustains the universe by his power (Heb. 1.3). He is over all, through all, and in all (Eph. 4.6). This isn't blackmail, it's reality. The cosmos is His. He made it, He sustains it, and He pervades it. He gave us the Bible to reveal these things to us. Creation reflects the attributes of God (order, regularity, predictability, beauty, purpose, personality, splendor, and greatness) far more than they reflect the natural processes of chance, accident, and selection via an unintelligent process. The message of the Bible is that you need to open your eyes and your mind to see the truth and accept it. It's there to see, and billions of people have found it.
> What this also means is that to reject existence itself is to become nonexistent. How is that a punishment? Why do you theists have to refer to it as a punishment? You only cause unnecessary stress towards people by doing this.
We only refer to it that way because the Bible does. Since we subscribe to the Bible because the evidences are compelling, then we subscribe to the Bible for its theology as well.
> I'm fine with living and loving beause I exist as part of the universe
You're living on what I would call "borrowed capital." You're taking theistic ideas and living by them, even though you have no foundation to do so if you don't subscribe to theism. For instance, if we're just an agglomeration of chemicals, then we're just that and nothing more. We can't talk of right and wrong or purpose or meaning, because we're just chemicals that came about through unintelligent processes. If we're just bio-chemicals that evolved, then personality, purpose, and morality just don't make sense. They're not part of the system.
But you want the life and love part without the One who gave it to you. You admit to the life and love part when naturalism gives you no such thing.
> Especially if it is claimed that he is all good.
As I mentioned previously, those who see him as not good have been deceived by lousy exegesis and interpretation of Scripture and haven't dug deeply enough to discern the truth. We can talk more as you wish.
> If he was simply indifferent and had nothing to do with us that would be fine.
Yeah, but that's impossible. Since He is personal and He is love, it would be contrary to His nature to be indifferent and aloof. God can't be self-contradictory, as nothing can. It's the reality of things.
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Re: Why should we worship God?
by Nuke-a-new » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:06 pm
> Correct. But knowledge is not causative. Because he can see around the corner doesn't mean he has caused.
when you design every aspect of the universe with knowledge of literally every interaction before it will happen, YES IT IS. He designed it in a way he KNEW it would occur intentionally.
> Correct, and he instituted a plan to make it right
A: So he created beings he knew would do (x) by its nature. Then punished them for doing so (like punching a baby for eating fruit you left in front of it. remember at this time they literally did not know right from wrong) and then makes it so you have to believe in a god concept without evidence or go to hell.
Such a brilliant plan.
> All one has to do is conform to the solution
Solution to what? Why is it my job to believe in a god without that evidence because that god made a mistake.
> What God creates is by necessity less than God, since God is, by definition, uncreated. Anything created is therefore vulnerable
You cannot add properties to things by adding it to the definition. PROVE your god exists and that he is not a contingent being, otherwise don't make the claim.
> God, knowing that humans were not divine, created a solution by which they could find life
or he could make them right the first time? Instead of f***ing with billions of them
> This is a non sequitur. His knowledge is not causative, therefore he is not the root cause. He can't create something uncreated, and therefore he is not the root cause for human beings being less than unbreakable.
He created all things intending for them to go they way they do. HE IS THE CAUSE.
> Prove it. Science would beg to differ. We know no such reality or have any such examples.
Did your god create reality or not? He can literally change any aspect he wants and make the results anything he wants.
Why do you not think through your comments before typing them? You make this way to easy for some one so smug earlier
when you design every aspect of the universe with knowledge of literally every interaction before it will happen, YES IT IS. He designed it in a way he KNEW it would occur intentionally.
> Correct, and he instituted a plan to make it right
A: So he created beings he knew would do (x) by its nature. Then punished them for doing so (like punching a baby for eating fruit you left in front of it. remember at this time they literally did not know right from wrong) and then makes it so you have to believe in a god concept without evidence or go to hell.
Such a brilliant plan.
> All one has to do is conform to the solution
Solution to what? Why is it my job to believe in a god without that evidence because that god made a mistake.
> What God creates is by necessity less than God, since God is, by definition, uncreated. Anything created is therefore vulnerable
You cannot add properties to things by adding it to the definition. PROVE your god exists and that he is not a contingent being, otherwise don't make the claim.
> God, knowing that humans were not divine, created a solution by which they could find life
or he could make them right the first time? Instead of f***ing with billions of them
> This is a non sequitur. His knowledge is not causative, therefore he is not the root cause. He can't create something uncreated, and therefore he is not the root cause for human beings being less than unbreakable.
He created all things intending for them to go they way they do. HE IS THE CAUSE.
> Prove it. Science would beg to differ. We know no such reality or have any such examples.
Did your god create reality or not? He can literally change any aspect he wants and make the results anything he wants.
Why do you not think through your comments before typing them? You make this way to easy for some one so smug earlier
- Nuke-a-new
Re: Why should we worship God?
by jimwalton » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:55 am
> when you design every aspect of the universe with knowledge of literally every interaction before it will happen, YES IT IS. He designed it in a way he KNEW it would occur intentionally.
No matter who you are or how much you know, knowledge is never causative. If I were your best friend and knew you very well, my knowledge would never make you do anything. If I were clairvoyant and knew your mind, it still wouldn't make you do anything. Even if I were omniscient, it still wouldn't make you do anything. It is not the nature of knowledge to have causative power. God's omniscience just means he can move forward and backward in time to see. But that ability doesn't not mean that because he can see it he made you do it.
> He designed it in a way he KNEW it would occur intentionally.
This is wrong. Because he could see it doesn't mean he caused it. If we were at an ice cream shop and you were trying to decide what flavor to buy, if I could move forward in time 10 minutes to see the results of your choice, I would know but I would not have caused. Knowledge is not causative.
> So he created beings he knew would do (x) by its nature. Then punished them for doing so (like punching a baby for eating fruit you left in front of it. remember at this time they literally did not know right from wrong) and then makes it so you have to believe in a god concept without evidence or go to hell.
Such a brilliant plan.
This way of thinking is so misguided and mistaken I hardly know where to begin. Any being God created would not be God (since God is uncreated). Therefore any created being is vulnerable to less than perfection, since by necessity it's not God. That vulnerability is unavoidable: God cannot create uncreated beings. Therefore what God did was institute a plan to keep them from self-destruction (clear directions and warnings), but also to make right whatever they did with their non-perfection. It was not only the wise plan but also the compassionate one.
Your analogy of punching a baby is absurd. Adam and Eve were adults and morally capable. They were intelligent enough to make the right decisions. There is nothing analogous to their situation with your violent and nonsensical "punching a baby" rhetoric.
> Solution to what? Why is it my job to believe in a god without that evidence because that god made a mistake.
A solution to your necessary imperfection, since you are a created being. A solution was necessary since God couldn't create uncreated beings.
It is your job to recognize the truth and the evidence when it is in front of you. There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God, and it's your course in life to follow the evidence wherever it leads and to recognize the truth when it presents.
> You cannot add properties to things by adding it to the definition. PROVE your god exists and that he is not a contingent being, otherwise don't make the claim.
That's a different question altogether. The discussion at hand is why we should worship God, not the evidences for the existence of God. That has to be a different post because there is so much evidence for him and so little evidence to refute the arguments for God.
But I've also noticed that biased people aren't convinced by the evidence.
> or he could make them right the first time?
He did make them right the first time. The only thing He could not do was created uncreated gods. Everything else He has provided.
> He created all things intending for them to go they way they do. HE IS THE CAUSE.
He is the cause of their existence, but we are created with free will. We are not determined. It's not possible. Any being that is self-aware is also self-determined.
> Did your god create reality or not?
God is not self-contradictory, and he can not create a self-contradictory reality. He can't create uncreated beings, he can't create married bachelors, and he can't create square circles. If you have evidence from science that dynamic systems can exist without natural disasters, I'll be pleased to see it.
> He can literally change any aspect he wants and make the results anything he wants.
Of course he can't. Some things have to be. He cannot create dynamic worlds without dynamic properties.
No matter who you are or how much you know, knowledge is never causative. If I were your best friend and knew you very well, my knowledge would never make you do anything. If I were clairvoyant and knew your mind, it still wouldn't make you do anything. Even if I were omniscient, it still wouldn't make you do anything. It is not the nature of knowledge to have causative power. God's omniscience just means he can move forward and backward in time to see. But that ability doesn't not mean that because he can see it he made you do it.
> He designed it in a way he KNEW it would occur intentionally.
This is wrong. Because he could see it doesn't mean he caused it. If we were at an ice cream shop and you were trying to decide what flavor to buy, if I could move forward in time 10 minutes to see the results of your choice, I would know but I would not have caused. Knowledge is not causative.
> So he created beings he knew would do (x) by its nature. Then punished them for doing so (like punching a baby for eating fruit you left in front of it. remember at this time they literally did not know right from wrong) and then makes it so you have to believe in a god concept without evidence or go to hell.
Such a brilliant plan.
This way of thinking is so misguided and mistaken I hardly know where to begin. Any being God created would not be God (since God is uncreated). Therefore any created being is vulnerable to less than perfection, since by necessity it's not God. That vulnerability is unavoidable: God cannot create uncreated beings. Therefore what God did was institute a plan to keep them from self-destruction (clear directions and warnings), but also to make right whatever they did with their non-perfection. It was not only the wise plan but also the compassionate one.
Your analogy of punching a baby is absurd. Adam and Eve were adults and morally capable. They were intelligent enough to make the right decisions. There is nothing analogous to their situation with your violent and nonsensical "punching a baby" rhetoric.
> Solution to what? Why is it my job to believe in a god without that evidence because that god made a mistake.
A solution to your necessary imperfection, since you are a created being. A solution was necessary since God couldn't create uncreated beings.
It is your job to recognize the truth and the evidence when it is in front of you. There is plenty of evidence for the existence of God, and it's your course in life to follow the evidence wherever it leads and to recognize the truth when it presents.
> You cannot add properties to things by adding it to the definition. PROVE your god exists and that he is not a contingent being, otherwise don't make the claim.
That's a different question altogether. The discussion at hand is why we should worship God, not the evidences for the existence of God. That has to be a different post because there is so much evidence for him and so little evidence to refute the arguments for God.
But I've also noticed that biased people aren't convinced by the evidence.
> or he could make them right the first time?
He did make them right the first time. The only thing He could not do was created uncreated gods. Everything else He has provided.
> He created all things intending for them to go they way they do. HE IS THE CAUSE.
He is the cause of their existence, but we are created with free will. We are not determined. It's not possible. Any being that is self-aware is also self-determined.
> Did your god create reality or not?
God is not self-contradictory, and he can not create a self-contradictory reality. He can't create uncreated beings, he can't create married bachelors, and he can't create square circles. If you have evidence from science that dynamic systems can exist without natural disasters, I'll be pleased to see it.
> He can literally change any aspect he wants and make the results anything he wants.
Of course he can't. Some things have to be. He cannot create dynamic worlds without dynamic properties.
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