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Let's talk about it. The Bible says some stuff, and our culture says a lot.
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I believe in God, but God made me gay

Postby Azura » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:14 pm

I believe in God, but God made me gay, and why would he do so if homosexuality is a sin by general consensus?
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Re: I believe in God, but God made me gay

Postby jimwalton » Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:08 pm

I'm guessing you posted to this forum because you think that Christians who think homosexuality is wrong are wrong themselves, since God created you gay. Isn't it odd that sexual orientation speaks so loudly to our spiritual lives? Our concern is supposed to be to seek God, to be filled with the Holy Spirit, to be found in Christ, and to walk in the ways of God. Yet there is this almost obsession with sexuality as if it's the most important part of our relationship with God. Possibly, as 1 Cor. 14.1 says, we should focus on the more important things.

Secondly, though, I can say with quite a bit of confidence that no one knows the origins of homosexual orientation. While research is going on continually, the weight of evidence so far (in the research) is that homosexuality is not inborn but is a learned behavior/orientation. In Science magazine, author Julie Borg writes that a thorough review of research shows little evidence for the "born this way" narrative, though over 50% of the U.S. adult population think gays and lesbians are so born. "But," she writes, "Lawrence Mayer, a biostatistician, and Paul McHugh, a psychiatrist, both from Johns Hopkins University department of psychiatry, examined over 200 leading, peer-reviewed studies from social science, psychology, and biology and found science does not support much of what the general public, politicians, and policy-makers believe about homosexuality. Their 143-page reviewappears in the fall 2016 issue of the journal The New Atlantis."

Third, homosexuality isn't a sin by general consensus but according to the Bible (Rom 1.24-32; 1 Tim.1.10). It's not a populist movement or morals by consensus but what the Bible teaches.

Fourth, it's a misguided argument to claim that become something is natural for us we should not call it sin. It's like claiming we're not accountable for whatever comes naturally to us. But this is not at all how the Bible speak of sin. There are instead all kinds of predispositions, inborn tendencies and desires, and even natural inclinations—all unchosen—that that Bible considers to be sin. Why would we put same-sex attraction in a different category than any of the other proclivities? Jesus said sin comes from the heart and we are spiritually and morally accountable for it (Mk. 7.21). And this assessment is in no way lessened by the possibility that we come by it naturally or were born that way.

The Bible rejects the idea that only freely chosen acts are morally culpable—actually the opposite. the very nature of sin is that it is not freely chosen. We are in bondage to sin but are still accountable to God for our actions. We just can't hold to the idea that homosexual orientation is morally neutral because it is involuntary.
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Re: I believe in God, but God made me gay

Postby Scape211 » Tue May 28, 2019 1:13 pm

I just wanted to say that I have heard and read a few studies about the idea of homosexuality being a learned behavior as opposed to being born. Some attribute it to trauma one experienced, others to the environment around you at a young age or even other reasoning.

One of the most convincing to me seemed subtle in a way that made my heart go out to those who experience it. It ultimately explains how when some of us are born we have different levels of interaction with our parents. For example, when boys are born they may fall into the category of rough-and-tumble or more sensitive. Both boys need interaction with their father figure. The rough-and-tumble boys just need proximity to their dad; sitting on the couch together, sitting in a boat fishing - dad just needs to be near. For the sensitive boy, they require more eye to eye engagement. For some fathers, this isn't as easy to spot and they may not even be equipped for it (maybe they grew up rough-and-tumble and didn't talk much with their father). So when this boy at a young age doesn't get that from their father, they often have it with their mother. The problem is when the boy starts to go through puberty and their body and hormones are changing. This often leads to them being curious about the opposite sex since they have had less interaction with them. However, these sensitive boys who have been connecting at a young age with their mother are now curious about the same sex and create a strong hormonal and sexual connection to other boys. This isnt something they choose, but its also not something they are born with.

This explanation made a lot of sense to me after seeing other cases of homosexuality, but its not defined as the root cause by any means. I just wanted to share it in relation to the idea of more evidence pointing to a learned behavior even when its unintentional.

As a Christian I have always struggled with homosexuality as a sin. As much as I understand why it is labeled as sin within the context and examples of the Bible, its hard to clearly mark on the same level as sin as many others that hurt others. But I suppose that goes back to the point that we are all sinful creatures and to put more weight on this sin above others its not correct either. We often times let our sexuality define more about our lives and our relationship with others (and even with God) than we ought to.
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Re: I believe in God, but God made me gay

Postby jimwalton » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:18 pm

I was just reading a collection of literature today about the genetic and biological sources of homosexuality. It turns out that, though there is no "gay gene," there are certainly genetic and biological factors that contribute to a person's sexuality. No one's quite ready to say that being gay is genetic, nor is gayness inherited, and yet there's more to it than environment and upbringing. One study said, "Nonheterosexuality is in part influenced by many tiny genetic effects.” It also said that these genetic variants could not reliably predict someone’s sexual orientation. “There’s really no predictive power.” There is a whole lot involved in our sexual orientation picture, but at least part of it is biological.

And yet I definitely feel for what you are writing. Our experiences growing up—and our relationships with Dad and Mom, male figures and female figures—all matter.

> why it is labeled as sin

    * Lev. 18.22; 20.13: It's "detestable," which means contrary to order. But it's not called a sin.
    * Romans 1.24-27: The desires of their hearts are sinful; the perverted degrading of their bodies is the result.
    * 1 Timothy 1.10: homosexuality is labelled as ungodly and sinful.

In Leviticus, it seems to be contrary to order. In Romans, it's a result of futile thinking and exchanging the truth of God for a lie. In Timothy, it is identified as a rebellion against God and an expression of unholiness. We must remember that the ancients knew nothing like what is going on in our culture: People seeking lifelong same-sex relationships of love. In the ancient cultures, homosexuality was almost always sodomy rape and pederasty. That's not to say what the Bible says doesn't count. Rather, it's all in the bucket of how we're thinking through what the Bible says, what it means, and what application it's supposed to have to our lives.

> its hard to clearly mark on the same level as sin as many others that hurt others

Though we know some sins are worse than others, we're not given the ranking list. Though it's pretty obvious that murder is worse than a white lie or petty theft, we don't have a solid grasp on where homosexuality fits. If we just go by how often it's mentioned compared to other things, adultery is FAR worse, and there is going to be more heck to pay by hundreds of thousands of people for millennia of sinful adulterous heterosexual relationships than for homosexual ones, but we're not given the ranking list. We're just told that God will deal with us each appropriately.

> We often times let our sexuality define more about our lives and our relationship with others (and even with God) than we ought to.

Boy, I agree with this. There's so much emphasis now on LGBTQ, one would think it's the only factor under consideration. While sexuality is certainly an important part of life, it sure doesn't deserve the pedestal its being given in our current society.

Feel free to talk more. I'm just blabbing out thoughts.


Last bumped by Anonymous on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:18 pm.
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