by jimwalton » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:23 pm
Such miraculous wonders in the Bible are only an example of what we all should be able to do if there is a teaching somewhere that says we should all be able to do it. Without such a supportive or endorsing teaching, we know that this was a miracle meant for Elijah alone for that event alone (Elijah didn't even call down fire at any other time himself). Therefore you are wrong that we Christians are being dishonest and doing a disservice to non-believers. God acts in specific times in specific ways with specific people, and there is NO indication in the Bible that anything God does, or anything that a man of God does, if available to all of us at any time or place.
> They claimed you should not test God. The problem with this, is that God has no issue with accepting Elijah's request.
This isn't the issue. I don't know what Christian told you this, but the issue is not that we shouldn't test God. Elijah wasn't testing God, either. The text makes it obvious that God was talking to Elijah (1 Ki. 18.1). The text also makes it obvious that God was guiding Elijah (18.12).
> It is clear that God has no problem with this form of apologetic.
In Elijah's case, you are correct. There is absolutely nothing in this text to make us think we should all do this anytime we choose. As I mentioned, Elijah didn't even do this again, though there were occasions for it (like when Jezebel threatened to kill him; why didn't he just call God's fire down on her head??).
> Elijah was a prophet, therefore had a special bond with God and was able to perform acts of wonders.
This is correct.
> Of course, Jesus, who is God, says the opposite. Jesus, who is God, claimed that believers would do greater works than him (1 John 14:12). Jesus, who is God, also claimed that ANYTHING his believers ask in his name, he will do for them (1 John 14:12). This implies that the believer can use this form of apologetic to turn nonbelievers into believers.
This is incorrect. Jesus is not saying the opposite. It's John 14.12 (not 1 John, btw).
Jesus's "going" is a key theme in John, especially chapters 13-17. What he means by "going" is his death. His "going" is his greatest work. He says the works they will do will be "because I am going," in other words, he's talking about the work of salvation in them and what they will accomplish because of it. He's not talking about miracles or tricks, but about the power of their local ministry. To see it fulfilled just look at Peter's sermon at Pentecost where 3,000 were saved (something Jesus never did), or Paul's missionary tours bringing thousands of Gentiles to Christ (something Jesus never did). Jesus's words are an invitation to radical faith and to participate in the mighty works of conversion to salvation.
Jesus is giving the gospel. He is advancing the kingdom. He is reclaiming the Earth as rightfully his. He has said many times that the work he did was the Father's work, and that he was passing that work on to us. When Jesus gives this promise, he was saying, “I’m giving you a job to do, my Father and I want the gospel to go forth, and I promise you’ll have everything you need to get that job done, and you’ll do an even better job than me.” Jesus ministered for 3 years, and at the end, he had a handful of disciples who half-believed in him. After Jesus went to heaven and the Holy Spirit came down, Peter preaches one sermon and thousands believe. That’s the greater thing God wants us to do. Look at what the Church has accomplished through history: heroism, devotion, gallantry, endurance, and achievement. Christ stamped his nature on billions who have changed the world. Together we will continue to accomplish the work started by Jesus.
The disciples did not understand Jesus to have been speaking of his miracles. In the book of Acts (Acts 2), when the Spirit comes upon them, they don't walk through the crowd healing people, jumping over tall buildings, flying, or what have you. Instead, Peter, aware of the Spirit in him, preaches for people to be saved. Then in Acts 3 they heal ONE man, and use the opportunity not to heal others, but to preach some more for people to be saved. When they get arrested in chapter 4, they don't use the occasion to do miracles in front of the Jewish leaders to convince them of their ability to do tricks in Jesus's name, but rather they are filled with the Spirit (Acts 4.8) to preach so that people become saved. And at the end of chapter 4, they don't pray for the ability to do miracles, but rather for boldness to preach (Acts 4.29).
> There were 450 Baal worshipers who, with this one act, turned to the True God. This proves to be highly effective in converting nonbelievers into believers and that they were convinced.
This is incorrect also. Notice how unexcited the people are at even the premise (1 Ki. 18.24). Yes, they worship at 18.39, but if you continue to follow the story into the next chapters, there is no revival that day. Their worship is spontaneous but superficial and non-lasting.
> They also claim that nonbelievers would disregard it as magic.
There is some truth to this. Critics on this forum continually regard the miracles of Jesus and others in the Bible as "magic tricks." Anybody can come up with an explanation of something to justify it in their minds the way they want to see it.
> Christians instead use philosophical arguments and debates in order to have the nonbeliever convert.
That's correct. It's a biblical approach (2 Cor. 10.5; Col. 2.4). Jesus often used philosophical arguments and debates to proclaim the truth.
> Instead believers could use this form of apologetic in front of many nonbelievers and be able to perform it over and over again to prove who is the True God. Yet, they do not.
That's right, we don't. It's not available to us as a way to communicate God. It was only once in history.
> Therefore, the fact that Christians are able to perform this apologetic according 1 John 14:12, and they don't, proves that they either do not care to save nonbelievers and/or they do not believe that their God would fulfill their prayer, which in others words, means they have no faith.
Therefore your conclusion is both misguided and false. So let's talk.
Such miraculous wonders in the Bible are only an example of what we all should be able to do if there is a teaching somewhere that says we should all be able to do it. Without such a supportive or endorsing teaching, we know that this was a miracle meant for Elijah alone for that event alone (Elijah didn't even call down fire at any other time himself). Therefore you are wrong that we Christians are being dishonest and doing a disservice to non-believers. God acts in specific times in specific ways with specific people, and there is NO indication in the Bible that anything God does, or anything that a man of God does, if available to all of us at any time or place.
> They claimed you should not test God. The problem with this, is that God has no issue with accepting Elijah's request.
This isn't the issue. I don't know what Christian told you this, but the issue is not that we shouldn't test God. Elijah wasn't testing God, either. The text makes it obvious that God was talking to Elijah (1 Ki. 18.1). The text also makes it obvious that God was guiding Elijah (18.12).
> It is clear that God has no problem with this form of apologetic.
In Elijah's case, you are correct. There is absolutely nothing in this text to make us think we should all do this anytime we choose. As I mentioned, Elijah didn't even do this again, though there were occasions for it (like when Jezebel threatened to kill him; why didn't he just call God's fire down on her head??).
> Elijah was a prophet, therefore had a special bond with God and was able to perform acts of wonders.
This is correct.
> Of course, Jesus, who is God, says the opposite. Jesus, who is God, claimed that believers would do greater works than him (1 John 14:12). Jesus, who is God, also claimed that ANYTHING his believers ask in his name, he will do for them (1 John 14:12). This implies that the believer can use this form of apologetic to turn nonbelievers into believers.
This is incorrect. Jesus is not saying the opposite. It's John 14.12 (not 1 John, btw).
Jesus's "going" is a key theme in John, especially chapters 13-17. What he means by "going" is his death. His "going" is his greatest work. He says the works they will do will be "because I am going," in other words, he's talking about the work of salvation in them and what they will accomplish because of it. He's not talking about miracles or tricks, but about the power of their local ministry. To see it fulfilled just look at Peter's sermon at Pentecost where 3,000 were saved (something Jesus never did), or Paul's missionary tours bringing thousands of Gentiles to Christ (something Jesus never did). Jesus's words are an invitation to radical faith and to participate in the mighty works of conversion to salvation.
Jesus is giving the gospel. He is advancing the kingdom. He is reclaiming the Earth as rightfully his. He has said many times that the work he did was the Father's work, and that he was passing that work on to us. When Jesus gives this promise, he was saying, “I’m giving you a job to do, my Father and I want the gospel to go forth, and I promise you’ll have everything you need to get that job done, and you’ll do an even better job than me.” Jesus ministered for 3 years, and at the end, he had a handful of disciples who half-believed in him. After Jesus went to heaven and the Holy Spirit came down, Peter preaches one sermon and thousands believe. That’s the greater thing God wants us to do. Look at what the Church has accomplished through history: heroism, devotion, gallantry, endurance, and achievement. Christ stamped his nature on billions who have changed the world. Together we will continue to accomplish the work started by Jesus.
The disciples did not understand Jesus to have been speaking of his miracles. In the book of Acts (Acts 2), when the Spirit comes upon them, they don't walk through the crowd healing people, jumping over tall buildings, flying, or what have you. Instead, Peter, aware of the Spirit in him, preaches for people to be saved. Then in Acts 3 they heal ONE man, and use the opportunity not to heal others, but to preach some more for people to be saved. When they get arrested in chapter 4, they don't use the occasion to do miracles in front of the Jewish leaders to convince them of their ability to do tricks in Jesus's name, but rather they are filled with the Spirit (Acts 4.8) to preach so that people become saved. And at the end of chapter 4, they don't pray for the ability to do miracles, but rather for boldness to preach (Acts 4.29).
> There were 450 Baal worshipers who, with this one act, turned to the True God. This proves to be highly effective in converting nonbelievers into believers and that they were convinced.
This is incorrect also. Notice how unexcited the people are at even the premise (1 Ki. 18.24). Yes, they worship at 18.39, but if you continue to follow the story into the next chapters, there is no revival that day. Their worship is spontaneous but superficial and non-lasting.
> They also claim that nonbelievers would disregard it as magic.
There is some truth to this. Critics on this forum continually regard the miracles of Jesus and others in the Bible as "magic tricks." Anybody can come up with an explanation of something to justify it in their minds the way they want to see it.
> Christians instead use philosophical arguments and debates in order to have the nonbeliever convert.
That's correct. It's a biblical approach (2 Cor. 10.5; Col. 2.4). Jesus often used philosophical arguments and debates to proclaim the truth.
> Instead believers could use this form of apologetic in front of many nonbelievers and be able to perform it over and over again to prove who is the True God. Yet, they do not.
That's right, we don't. It's not available to us as a way to communicate God. It was only once in history.
> Therefore, the fact that Christians are able to perform this apologetic according 1 John 14:12, and they don't, proves that they either do not care to save nonbelievers and/or they do not believe that their God would fulfill their prayer, which in others words, means they have no faith.
Therefore your conclusion is both misguided and false. So let's talk.