by jimwalton » Fri Nov 18, 2022 6:32 pm
> I don't think the evidence is as strong as you say it is
Of course you don't. No surprise.
> because if it was I don't think there would be as many atheists as there are
As I said, and have had many many conversations, it's not evidence that convinces.
> Remember that we don't choose what we believe
I've heard this 100 times, too. It's garbage. There are things we don't choose to believe, such as the existence of the sun, but there are many things we choose to believe, such as what kind of president Donald Trump was, or whether the Jan. 6 riot was his fault or not. We evaluate the evidence and choose what we believe. Theism is that way: We evaluate the evidence and choose what we believe.
> If there are many millions and millions of people unconvinced, evidence must not be very good
This is not true, either. Most people make decisions from their guts, not from their heads. We follow our intuitions more than we follow the evidence. Our intuitions tell us what evidence to accept and which to reject.
> If we were alive during the time of Jesus and saw him performing miracles I would agree that evidence for God is quite strong
Thousands of people watched Jesus perform miracles, but at the end of His life He had very few followers. Miracles didn't convince most people. In a similar way, the miracles didn't convince Pharaoh to let the Israelites go. Even now, if you were to see a miracle right in front of your eyes, your worldview would motivate you to come up with an alternate explanation, and even if you couldn't do that, you'd probably say, "Well, I don't know how to explain it, but there must be an explanation other than a miracle."
> At the end of the day God should know exactly what each person would take to be convinced and that different people will require more or less evidence
He does know. That's why Jesus said, "Even if someone came back from the dead, they won't believe." No matter what the evidence, and right in front of their eyes, evidence doesn't convince. Nothing can penetrate a closed mind.
> Creating all sorts of different people from different backgrounds and with different intellects but expecting them to believe the same level of evidence is problematic to me.
Different people see different levels of evidence. The people in Jerusalem of Jesus's day got to see him risen in the flesh. I don't get that. Some people get visions; I don't get that. People are doing miracles today; I've never seen that. People do get different levels of evidence. What's problematic to me is that some people, no matter what evidence they get, still won't believe. And, I presume, that's you, since you said "I don't think the evidence is as strong as you say it is." I know the evidence FOR is far stronger than the evidence AGAINST. But that doesn't carry weight with someone who doesn't want to believe.
> I don't think the evidence is as strong as you say it is
Of course you don't. No surprise.
> because if it was I don't think there would be as many atheists as there are
As I said, and have had many many conversations, it's not evidence that convinces.
> Remember that we don't choose what we believe
I've heard this 100 times, too. It's garbage. There are things we don't choose to believe, such as the existence of the sun, but there are many things we choose to believe, such as what kind of president Donald Trump was, or whether the Jan. 6 riot was his fault or not. We evaluate the evidence and choose what we believe. Theism is that way: We evaluate the evidence and choose what we believe.
> If there are many millions and millions of people unconvinced, evidence must not be very good
This is not true, either. Most people make decisions from their guts, not from their heads. We follow our intuitions more than we follow the evidence. Our intuitions tell us what evidence to accept and which to reject.
> If we were alive during the time of Jesus and saw him performing miracles I would agree that evidence for God is quite strong
Thousands of people watched Jesus perform miracles, but at the end of His life He had very few followers. Miracles didn't convince most people. In a similar way, the miracles didn't convince Pharaoh to let the Israelites go. Even now, if you were to see a miracle right in front of your eyes, your worldview would motivate you to come up with an alternate explanation, and even if you couldn't do that, you'd probably say, "Well, I don't know how to explain it, but there must be an explanation other than a miracle."
> At the end of the day God should know exactly what each person would take to be convinced and that different people will require more or less evidence
He does know. That's why Jesus said, "Even if someone came back from the dead, they won't believe." No matter what the evidence, and right in front of their eyes, evidence doesn't convince. Nothing can penetrate a closed mind.
> Creating all sorts of different people from different backgrounds and with different intellects but expecting them to believe the same level of evidence is problematic to me.
Different people see different levels of evidence. The people in Jerusalem of Jesus's day got to see him risen in the flesh. I don't get that. Some people get visions; I don't get that. People are doing miracles today; I've never seen that. People do get different levels of evidence. What's problematic to me is that some people, no matter what evidence they get, still won't believe. And, I presume, that's you, since you said "I don't think the evidence is as strong as you say it is." I know the evidence FOR is far stronger than the evidence AGAINST. But that doesn't carry weight with someone who doesn't want to believe.