by jimwalton » Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:02 am
> Deuteronomy 7
Yes, of course I'm familiar with this text. You can see that the text starts with assumption that the people were to be driven out, not genocided.
Secondly, what most people don't realize, presumably yourself included, is that the rhetoric of "destroy them completely" was ancient warfare rhetoric that meant "win a decisive battle." It didn't mean "kill them all." Allow me to show you some evidence.
- Egypt’s Tuthmosis III (later 15th c.) boasted that “the numerous army of Mitanni was overthrown within the hour, annihilated totally, like those (now) not existent.” In fact, Mitanni’s forces lived on to fight in the 15th and 14th centuries BC. There was no annihilation. No “totally." Just rhetoric for "we won a decisive victory."
- Hittite king Mursilli II (who ruled from 1322-1295 BC) recorded making “Mt. Asharpaya empty (of humanity)” and the “mountains of Tarikarimu empty (of humanity).” It just wasn’t true. It’s warfare rhetoric.
- The “Bulletin” of Ramses II tells of Egypt’s less-than-spectacular victories in Syria (1274 BC). Nevertheless, he announces that he slew “the entire force” of the Hittites, indeed “all the chiefs of all the countries,” disregarding the “millions of foreigners,” which he considered “chaff.” Not true.
- In the Merneptah Stele (c. 1230-1208 BC), Rameses II’s son Merneptah announced, “Israel is wasted, his seed is not,” another premature declaration. This sounds like he was killing all the children. It just wasn’t so. Israel was around for six more centuries—but this is the way they talked.
- Moab’s king Mesha (840/830 BC) bragged that the Northern Kingdom of “Israel has utterly perished for always,” which was over a century premature. The Israelites were still around for the Assyrians to devastate in a century later, in 722 BC.
- The Assyrian ruler Sennacherib (701-681 BC) used similar hyperbole: “The soldiers of Hirimme, dangerous enemies, I cut down with the sword; and not one escaped.” Yeah, I don’t believe a word of it. What they’re saying is that they won decisively.
So you see, there is no genocide going on. They are not "destroying them totally." They won the battle, and this is their rhetoric. You'll notice that in Dt. 7, after God tells them to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites, He says that after that they shouldn't make any treaties with them or intermarry with them. Wait a minute...aren't they all dead? Ha. Nope. "Kill 'em all" was a purge of their idolatry (v. 5), not physical slaughter. Even Deuteronomy 7.22 says this will happen a little at a time, not with one great genocidal slaughter. They will be driven out over the course of decades or even centuries. No genocide happened here.
> The Amalekites, 1 Sam. 15
Same story. The Amalekites were a large nomadic group scattered over thousands of square miles. But Saul accomplished his military task in one night (v. 12). And he did it by hiding in a ravine. What he is conquering is a city. There is no genocide going on. The Amalekites were a people group for about 1000 years after this event.
> 2 Corinthians 6.14-17
Correct. The point is not to let yourself be drawn into sinful behaviors by virtue of your relationships. We need to let nothing sidetrack us from our calling and our walk. No stumbling blocks. Endure Hardship. Our relationships have great spiritual import. We shape our lives according to the influences we choose to surround ourselves with. Paul is saying we should not allow ourselves to be influenced by ungodliness. Good words.
> Also, you seem to be primarily referring to the conquests that occurred after Mohammed died.
Mohammed led armies in conquest, and after he died the effort was continued. He was an aggressive and violent military leader, not just fighting defensive battles but fighting battles of conquest. So then Islamic armies after him sought to establish an empire and conquer the world to force Islam on many people groups.
> This is something Israel and Judah were also guilty of (the self-pride of receiving the covenant).
I have no idea what this has to do with the violent military conquest of Mohammed and of the islamic armies for centuries after Mohammad.
> Deuteronomy 7
Yes, of course I'm familiar with this text. You can see that the text starts with assumption that the people were to be driven out, not genocided.
Secondly, what most people don't realize, presumably yourself included, is that the rhetoric of "destroy them completely" was ancient warfare rhetoric that meant "win a decisive battle." It didn't mean "kill them all." Allow me to show you some evidence.
[list][*] Egypt’s Tuthmosis III (later 15th c.) boasted that “the numerous army of Mitanni was overthrown within the hour, annihilated totally, like those (now) not existent.” In fact, Mitanni’s forces lived on to fight in the 15th and 14th centuries BC. There was no annihilation. No “totally." Just rhetoric for "we won a decisive victory."
[*] Hittite king Mursilli II (who ruled from 1322-1295 BC) recorded making “Mt. Asharpaya empty (of humanity)” and the “mountains of Tarikarimu empty (of humanity).” It just wasn’t true. It’s warfare rhetoric.
[*] The “Bulletin” of Ramses II tells of Egypt’s less-than-spectacular victories in Syria (1274 BC). Nevertheless, he announces that he slew “the entire force” of the Hittites, indeed “all the chiefs of all the countries,” disregarding the “millions of foreigners,” which he considered “chaff.” Not true.
[*] In the Merneptah Stele (c. 1230-1208 BC), Rameses II’s son Merneptah announced, “Israel is wasted, his seed is not,” another premature declaration. This sounds like he was killing all the children. It just wasn’t so. Israel was around for six more centuries—but this is the way they talked.
[*] Moab’s king Mesha (840/830 BC) bragged that the Northern Kingdom of “Israel has utterly perished for always,” which was over a century premature. The Israelites were still around for the Assyrians to devastate in a century later, in 722 BC.
[*] The Assyrian ruler Sennacherib (701-681 BC) used similar hyperbole: “The soldiers of Hirimme, dangerous enemies, I cut down with the sword; and not one escaped.” Yeah, I don’t believe a word of it. What they’re saying is that they won decisively.[/list]
So you see, there is no genocide going on. They are not "destroying them totally." They won the battle, and this is their rhetoric. You'll notice that in Dt. 7, after God tells them to "utterly destroy" the Canaanites, He says that after that they shouldn't make any treaties with them or intermarry with them. Wait a minute...aren't they all dead? Ha. Nope. "Kill 'em all" was a purge of their idolatry (v. 5), not physical slaughter. Even Deuteronomy 7.22 says this will happen a little at a time, not with one great genocidal slaughter. They will be driven out over the course of decades or even centuries. No genocide happened here.
> The Amalekites, 1 Sam. 15
Same story. The Amalekites were a large nomadic group scattered over thousands of square miles. But Saul accomplished his military task in one night (v. 12). And he did it by hiding in a ravine. What he is conquering is a city. There is no genocide going on. The Amalekites were a people group for about 1000 years after this event.
> 2 Corinthians 6.14-17
Correct. The point is not to let yourself be drawn into sinful behaviors by virtue of your relationships. We need to let nothing sidetrack us from our calling and our walk. No stumbling blocks. Endure Hardship. Our relationships have great spiritual import. We shape our lives according to the influences we choose to surround ourselves with. Paul is saying we should not allow ourselves to be influenced by ungodliness. Good words.
> Also, you seem to be primarily referring to the conquests that occurred after Mohammed died.
Mohammed led armies in conquest, and after he died the effort was continued. He was an aggressive and violent military leader, not just fighting defensive battles but fighting battles of conquest. So then Islamic armies after him sought to establish an empire and conquer the world to force Islam on many people groups.
> This is something Israel and Judah were also guilty of (the self-pride of receiving the covenant).
I have no idea what this has to do with the violent military conquest of Mohammed and of the islamic armies for centuries after Mohammad.