by jimwalton » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:19 pm
> There is a big difference between a being's giving over and a being's letting people suffer from the consequences of their actions.
A parent sometimes lets their child make mistakes, and sometimes very painful mistakes, because that's perhaps the best way to teach them the error of their ways, or sometimes the ONLY way to teach them the error of their ways. When a teenager acts rebellious, sometimes the parent just backs down from the fight and says, "Go ahead. Do what you want. But don't say I didn't warn you." This scenario plays out thousands of times in the lives of teens. In this text in Romans, that is exactly the spirit of the "giving over." God lets go, says, "You're intent on doing this no matter what I say. Go ahead, but don't say I didn't warn you that you won't like where it takes you."
> The text does not say "He allowed them their own choice of a self-determined course", but rather that God gave them over to something.
You have to read the whole text, not just a sentence. You have to capture what Paul is saying, not just look superficially at words on a page. C'mon.
> Why do you go against the literal meaning of the text in this series of passages?
I have shown you repeatedly, by mentioning numerous verses from this text as well as other of Paul's writings, that you are distorting the text with superficial readings and not taking into account all of what Paul is saying.
> This series of passages, interpreted literally, is evidence that YHVH actively punishes people who disobey him through his actions.
The Bible is a rich literary collection containing music, poetry, metaphor, allegory, archetypes, parable, hyperbole, metonymy, irony, simile, and many other literary forms, as well as genres such as prayer, prophecy, blessing, covenant language, legal language, etc. "Literally" quickly becomes a word with very little meaning or helpfulness. If a poet says the trees of the field will clap their hands and the mountains will jump for joy, is that literal? Of course not, it's poetry. If a man prays, "God, kill all those people", we may all understand that his prayer is inappropriate, and is not blessed by God, but is it literal? Well, how does that word even apply? And how does it apply to archetype, allegory, parable, and all the others? It's a word that should be dropped from the discussion because it doesn't take us anywhere except to the Land of Misunderstanding.
It's better to think that the Bible should be taken the way the author intended it to be taken. If he was using hyperbole, we're to take it that way. So also allegorically, historically, parabolic, poetic, etc. Our quest is to understand the intent of the author. In that case we'll take the Bible *seriously*, but "literally" doesn't take us anywhere.
Current slang English has many examples. When someone likes something, they say it's "wicked." When they're impressed and taken off guard, they say, "Oh, shut up!" What do we mean when we say something is "lit" or that someone is "killing it"?
We go back to the context and the intent of the author. I have proved to you in about 3 different ways that there is NO evidence that YHWH actively punishes people by sending them a lie. All you have to hang on to is, "Well, that's what it says." Remember, there is more to the world than there seems on the surface, and there is always more to the story. I'll assume you're astute enough to grasp that.
> There is a big difference between a being's giving over and a being's letting people suffer from the consequences of their actions.
A parent sometimes lets their child make mistakes, and sometimes very painful mistakes, because that's perhaps the best way to teach them the error of their ways, or sometimes the ONLY way to teach them the error of their ways. When a teenager acts rebellious, sometimes the parent just backs down from the fight and says, "Go ahead. Do what you want. But don't say I didn't warn you." This scenario plays out thousands of times in the lives of teens. In this text in Romans, that is exactly the spirit of the "giving over." God lets go, says, "You're intent on doing this no matter what I say. Go ahead, but don't say I didn't warn you that you won't like where it takes you."
> The text does not say "He allowed them their own choice of a self-determined course", but rather that God gave them over to something.
You have to read the whole text, not just a sentence. You have to capture what Paul is saying, not just look superficially at words on a page. C'mon.
> Why do you go against the literal meaning of the text in this series of passages?
I have shown you repeatedly, by mentioning numerous verses from this text as well as other of Paul's writings, that you are distorting the text with superficial readings and not taking into account all of what Paul is saying.
> This series of passages, interpreted literally, is evidence that YHVH actively punishes people who disobey him through his actions.
The Bible is a rich literary collection containing music, poetry, metaphor, allegory, archetypes, parable, hyperbole, metonymy, irony, simile, and many other literary forms, as well as genres such as prayer, prophecy, blessing, covenant language, legal language, etc. "Literally" quickly becomes a word with very little meaning or helpfulness. If a poet says the trees of the field will clap their hands and the mountains will jump for joy, is that literal? Of course not, it's poetry. If a man prays, "God, kill all those people", we may all understand that his prayer is inappropriate, and is not blessed by God, but is it literal? Well, how does that word even apply? And how does it apply to archetype, allegory, parable, and all the others? It's a word that should be dropped from the discussion because it doesn't take us anywhere except to the Land of Misunderstanding.
It's better to think that the Bible should be taken the way the author intended it to be taken. If he was using hyperbole, we're to take it that way. So also allegorically, historically, parabolic, poetic, etc. Our quest is to understand the intent of the author. In that case we'll take the Bible *seriously*, but "literally" doesn't take us anywhere.
Current slang English has many examples. When someone likes something, they say it's "wicked." When they're impressed and taken off guard, they say, "Oh, shut up!" What do we mean when we say something is "lit" or that someone is "killing it"?
We go back to the context and the intent of the author. I have proved to you in about 3 different ways that there is NO evidence that YHWH actively punishes people by sending them a lie. All you have to hang on to is, "Well, that's what it says." Remember, there is more to the world than there seems on the surface, and there is always more to the story. I'll assume you're astute enough to grasp that.