2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

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Expand view Topic review: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by jimwalton » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:38 am

> I would classify what you describe not as "giving over to" but as giving up, as in surrendering to apathy.

The Bible describes it as a giving over. I'm only going by what the Bible says. But it's not a surrender to apathy or a giving up, but sometimes the best mechanism to use to teach someone the realities and dangers of life as well as the error of their ways. I believe it is in the latter sense that Romans means it. In His continuing effort to bring individuals to Himself, sometimes the only course of action is to let them experience the error of their ways, hoping that their self-chosen sorrow will wake them up and turn their lives around.

> My question for you, then, is where does one stop with non-literal readings of the Bible?

We never just assume a baseline ("literal") about the written text. We approach it neutrally and objectively, and let the text guide us to its proper interpretation. We take into account the culture and worldview of the author, the intent of the book, the literary style of the author and the book, and we interpret as wisely as we can.

    * We let the Bible interpret itself. Scripture is its own best interpreter.
    * Biblical examples are only authoritative when they are supported by a command.
    * Since Scripture originated in a historical context, it can be understood only in the light of Biblical history.
    * You must understand the Bible grammatically before you can understand it theologically.
    * Interpret words in harmony with their meaning in the times of the author.
    * Interpret a word in relation to its sentence and context.
    * Interpret a passage in harmony with its context.
    * When an inanimate object is used to describe a living being, we can understand that to be figurative, not literal.
    * When an expression is out of character with the thing described, the statement may be considered to be figurative.

Stuff like this.

> There is one non-literal interpretation of the Bible that claims that Jesus was really preaching Buddhism (which I, a Buddhist, disagree with).

Yeah, I disagree with this as well. It yanks Jesus out of all historical and theological context to read him and all his teaching as metaphorical. It's not responsible exegesis or hermeneutics.

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by Great King of Heaven » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:37 pm

> A parent sometimes lets their child make mistakes, and sometimes very painful mistakes, because that's perhaps the best way to teach them the error of their ways, or sometimes the ONLY way to teach them the error of their ways. When a teenager acts rebellious, sometimes the parent just backs down from the fight and says, "Go ahead. Do what you want. But don't say I didn't warn you." This scenario plays out thousands of times in the lives of teens. In this text in Romans, that is exactly the spirit of the "giving over." God lets go, says, "You're intent on doing this no matter what I say. Go ahead, but don't say I didn't warn you that you won't like where it takes you."

I would classify what you describe not as "giving over to" but as giving up, as in surrendering to apathy.

Still, I guess that we disagree, and I say that we must agree to disagree.

My question for you, then, is where does one stop with non-literal readings of the Bible? There is one non-literal interpretation of the Bible that claims that Jesus was really preaching Buddhism (which I, a Buddhist, disagree with).

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by jimwalton » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:19 pm

> There is a big difference between a being's giving over and a being's letting people suffer from the consequences of their actions.

A parent sometimes lets their child make mistakes, and sometimes very painful mistakes, because that's perhaps the best way to teach them the error of their ways, or sometimes the ONLY way to teach them the error of their ways. When a teenager acts rebellious, sometimes the parent just backs down from the fight and says, "Go ahead. Do what you want. But don't say I didn't warn you." This scenario plays out thousands of times in the lives of teens. In this text in Romans, that is exactly the spirit of the "giving over." God lets go, says, "You're intent on doing this no matter what I say. Go ahead, but don't say I didn't warn you that you won't like where it takes you."

> The text does not say "He allowed them their own choice of a self-determined course", but rather that God gave them over to something.

You have to read the whole text, not just a sentence. You have to capture what Paul is saying, not just look superficially at words on a page. C'mon.

> Why do you go against the literal meaning of the text in this series of passages?

I have shown you repeatedly, by mentioning numerous verses from this text as well as other of Paul's writings, that you are distorting the text with superficial readings and not taking into account all of what Paul is saying.

> This series of passages, interpreted literally, is evidence that YHVH actively punishes people who disobey him through his actions.

The Bible is a rich literary collection containing music, poetry, metaphor, allegory, archetypes, parable, hyperbole, metonymy, irony, simile, and many other literary forms, as well as genres such as prayer, prophecy, blessing, covenant language, legal language, etc. "Literally" quickly becomes a word with very little meaning or helpfulness. If a poet says the trees of the field will clap their hands and the mountains will jump for joy, is that literal? Of course not, it's poetry. If a man prays, "God, kill all those people", we may all understand that his prayer is inappropriate, and is not blessed by God, but is it literal? Well, how does that word even apply? And how does it apply to archetype, allegory, parable, and all the others? It's a word that should be dropped from the discussion because it doesn't take us anywhere except to the Land of Misunderstanding.

It's better to think that the Bible should be taken the way the author intended it to be taken. If he was using hyperbole, we're to take it that way. So also allegorically, historically, parabolic, poetic, etc. Our quest is to understand the intent of the author. In that case we'll take the Bible *seriously*, but "literally" doesn't take us anywhere.

Current slang English has many examples. When someone likes something, they say it's "wicked." When they're impressed and taken off guard, they say, "Oh, shut up!" What do we mean when we say something is "lit" or that someone is "killing it"?

We go back to the context and the intent of the author. I have proved to you in about 3 different ways that there is NO evidence that YHWH actively punishes people by sending them a lie. All you have to hang on to is, "Well, that's what it says." Remember, there is more to the world than there seems on the surface, and there is always more to the story. I'll assume you're astute enough to grasp that.

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by Great King of Heaven » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:09 pm

There is a big difference between a being's giving over and a being's letting people suffer from the consequences of their actions.

The text does not say "He allowed them their own choice of a self-determined course", but rather that God gave them over to something. Why do you go against the literal meaning of the text in this series of passages? This series of passages, interpreted literally, is evidence that YHVH actively punishes people who disobey him through his actions.

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by jimwalton » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:29 am

Thanks for asking for clarification. The phrase "give them over" does not indicate that God is playing a more active role. Here's the flow of the Romans text:

    * God revealed Himself accurately so that people could know Him (Rom. 1.18-20)
    * People actively suppressed that truth (1.18)
    * People actively turned against God despite their knowledge, which darkened their own hearts and corrupted their own minds (1.21), becoming fools (1.22).
    * People actively exchanged what they knew about God and exchanged it for other ideas (1.23).
    * Therefore God gave them over to it (1.24ff.)

In v. 24 we see the first of three mentions of "God gave them over" (24, 26, 28). It starts with "therefore," indicating a cause-and-effect relationship. What was the cause? Human sin, the deliberate turning away, the refusal to see the truth. God had opened His hands and made Himself known. But instead of holding them against their will, He allowed them their own choice of a self-determined course. They chose to abandon Him, so God opened His hands and let them go to their own devices. Since He gave them moral freedom, He can't forbid them to use it. The punishment of sin lies not in any direct intervention by which God disciplines the rebels, but in the consequences that naturally follow from a lawless life.

It is an active sense: God is letting them go to their own devices.

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by Great King of Heaven » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:28 am

But surely the phase "give them over" means that YHVH is playing a more active role than merely letting them fall into wrong patterns of thought and behaviour. After all, to give someone over to something suggests that the person who does the giving over is actively doing something rather than simply letting something happen to the other person.

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by jimwalton » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:38 pm

> But who sends the lies that these people receive because they wish to believe the lies? YHVH, as the text says.

As you intimated in your own post a few posts ago, we let Paul interpret Paul. He is not of the position that God sends lies. In Paul's own writings...

* God gives them over to their own desires (Rom. 1.24), and that's where they exchange the truth for a lie (Rom. 1.25)
* God gives them over to their own lusts (Rom. 1.26), and that's where they bring the penalty for their own perversion upon themselves (Rom. 1.27).
* Since they themselves did not consider it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God (Rom. 1.28), God gives them over to a depraved mind, and they do what they have been dedicated to do (Rom. 1.28-31).
* Though they know the truth and what is right, they choose in themselves to do things that deserve death (Rom. 1.32).
* This is consistent with what is written in Psalm 81.11-12: "But my people would not listen to me; Israel would not submit to me. So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices."

The only sense in which God is "sending a powerful delusion" is in that He won't interfere with their free will. Those who close their minds to the truth become the victims of delusions. They fail because they refused to heed the truth (2 Thes. 2.5). This agent of deceit has always been at work in the world, but God restrained it (2 Thes. 2.7). In the end times God will stop holding it back; his deceit will be in full swing (2 Thes. 2.9-10), and then Jesus Himself will destroy all such deceit (2 Thes. 2.8). God is the one who holds back deceit (2.7) and who destroys it (2.8). The only sense in which God sends it, according to the text itself, is in removing his hand of restraint and protection. And even in that case, those who know the truth and pursue the truth will still know it and find it (2 Thes. 2.13). Only those who refused to acknowledge the truth anyway will succumb to it (2 Thes. 2.12).

> And once one admits that YHVH will send delusions to group X

This is your 3rd time saying this, and my 3rd time denying it. I am not admitting, nor ever will, that YHWH sends delusions to group X. That is not what this text is saying or meaning.

> I admit that it is possible if what you say about Egyptian idiom be true. But would you spend so much effort trying to make a text mean its opposite if it were not the Bible?

I only spend so much time explaining it because you have failed to grasp what the Bible is saying. All I'm doing is showing you what the Bible itself says in clear print.

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by Great King of Heaven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:38 pm

> Despite the miracle-working power of the Great Deceiver, "Christians should resist being misled (v. 9). Only the unbelievers who don't know any better will fall for his ruse. They will only receive the lies they've been determined to believe all along (v. 11)."

But who sends the lies that these people receive because they wish to believe the lies? YHVH, as the text says. And once one admits that YHVH will send delusions to group X, any argument about why YHVH cannot send delusions upon group Y would be denying that YHVH is omnipotent. This does not involve rhetoric along the lines of "If YHVH were omnipotent, he could create a rock that he could not lift", which addresses a scenario not found in the Bible. Rather, this uses the text of the Bible, which clearly states that YHVH is omnipotent and that YHVH can and will delude people.

As for your interpretation of YHVH's actions in Exodus, I admit that it is possible if what you say about Egyptian idiom be true. But would you spend so much effort trying to make a text mean its opposite if it were not the Bible?

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by jimwalton » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:57 am

> On what ground do you deny that YHVH is not capable of sending strong delusions?

I explained this thoroughly and at length in my first post reply to you. I'm surprised that you ask this question as if I haven't said a thing. What I said was, "This part of 2 Thessalonians is to correct misunderstandings about Jesus's return (vv. 1-2). To that end, it is particularly about the final rebellion against God in the last days—the End Times (vv. 3-12). Paul is encouraging the Christians who are being persecuted not to despair, because God's ultimate triumph over evil is certain. It's a no-brainer.

Verse 6 is the important point: For now God is holding the Great Deceiver back, but at the right time of eschatological fulfillment, God will take off his chains and let him have at humanity. This is what verse 11 is about, not that God is a liar.

Some of his points:

* Don't let anyone deceive you (v. 3). Only believe the truth from God (an important point considering your interpretation of v. 11).
* The Deceiver himself will be in the mix, leading many astray (another important point re: v. 11. The "man of lawlessness" is the deceiver).
* Deceit is always part of the spiritual picture, but there will be a time when the Great Deceiver is not restrained by the merciful hand of God (v. 7).
* Believers are not to worry. At the right time, Jesus will dispose of the Great Deceiver (v. 8). Christians can hold strong to their faith.
* Despite the miracle-working power of the Great Deceiver, Christians should resist being misled (v. 9). Only the unbelievers who don't know any better will fall for his ruse. They will only receive the lies they've been determined to believe all along (v. 11).

In other words, as I said to you, "God is not sending false revelations. This is contrary to the context, the grammar, the terminology, and the intent of the text."

> 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie". Are you denying that 2 Thessalonians 2:11 is true?

I'm not denying it's true. I'm repudiating the false interpretation you are giving it by a superficial reading that ignores the context and the meaning of it.

> There are many verses within the Bible that say that YHVH hardened pharaoh's heart - they in fact outnumber verses saying that pharaoh hardened his own heart.

The quantity of verses doesn't matter. What matters is what they mean. I have clearly shown that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" only after Pharaoh had hardened it himself. In other words, as I've already said, "When the text says God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it means He let Pharaoh pursue the course Pharaoh had already decided to pursue, which is what Romans 9.18 is about. God knows when it is no longer possible to turn someone around. After expending every possible effort and extending mercy, He knows when the effort is fruitless and without hope, and he walks away, leaving people to their own demise."

There are other possible factors, however, that help to explain what was happening here. The first of those is that the Egyptians believed, as we do, that judgment took place in the afterlife. The Book of the Dead mentions a scene where the heart of the dead person is weighed on a scale to see if it’s heavier than a feather. This is how the Egyptians' envision whether they lived a good life or a bad one—whether they lived right and wrong. If the heart is lighter than a feather, then the dead person is granted favor. If it is heavy their soul will be consumed. What makes sense of this is that the biblical expressions about a "hard" or "strong" heart are actually about a heavy heart. Same concept. Each time his heart is hard, it grows heavier. What this means is that when the text says God was making Pharaoh’s heart hard, God wasn’t making him more resistant but showing that Pharaoh was more guilty. The conclusion is that God wasn’t making Pharaoh obstinate, but that YHWH is judging the Pharaoh as guilty, even though ancient Egyptians believed their king could do no wrong. God is not being unfair to Pharaoh and then punishing him for it. It’s just that at every turn, as Pharaoh resisted the works of God over and over, God was affirming that Pharaoh was more guilty.

But there’s still another possibility. "Heavy-hearted" (or hard hearted) is also an Egyptian expression meaning that a person has great self-control and is able to refrain from speaking rashly. Our expression for it would be "level-headed;" theirs was "hard hearted" (much like our "stout-hearted"). The implications of this is that possibly it means that when God says, I will harden Pharaoh’s heart,” what it means is that God is allowing Pharaoh to make his own decisions. As I mentioned before, YHWH is letting the king do exactly what he wants, and the way they would say that is that God was making Pharaoh’s heart hard—that God was letting Pharaoh be as “level-headed” as he wanted to be, which in this case was leading his people into disaster. God was not to be blamed for forcing Pharaoh to reject Israel. That’s not what was going on.

Any of these could be true, and possibly more than one, but the one that is definitely wrong is the way most people read it—that God is forcing Pharaoh to do things the king doesn't want to do, and then God blames Pharaoh for what God made him do in the first place and then punishes him for it. That’s the one that’s untrue.

> Why do you choose the tradition that is represented by the lesser number of verses, especially when this tradition would limit YHVH's omnipotence?

I'm not choosing a tradition, but exegeting the texts. What I choose is the intent of the text and what it is teaching us, not counting the verses and ignoring the rest.

Re: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God lies to us

Post by Great King of Heaven » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:55 am

On what ground do you deny that YHVH is not capable of sending strong delusions? 2 Thessalonians 2:11 says "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie". Are you denying that 2 Thessalonians 2:11 is true?

There are many verses within the Bible that say that YHVH hardened pharaoh's heart - they in fact outnumber verses saying that pharaoh hardened his own heart.

    - And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. Exodus 4:21
    - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. Exodus 7:3
    - And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Exodus 7:13
    - And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. Exodus 9:12
    - And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him. Exodus 10:1
    - But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. Exodus 10:20
    - But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. Exodus 10:27
    - And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. Exodus 11:10
    - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. Exodus 14:4
    - And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel. Exodus 14:8
    - I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. Exodus 14:18

In contrast, these are the verses saying the opposite:

    - But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart. Exodus 8:15
    - And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Exodus 8:32
    - And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. Exodus 9:34
    - Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1 Samuel 6:6

Why do you choose the tradition that is represented by the lesser number of verses, especially when this tradition would limit YHVH's omnipotence?

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