by jimwalton » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:53 pm
Great thoughts and good conversation. Our best bet is to start with the words themselves, because they have flexibility and nuances, and then we are left to interpret.
2 Thes. 1.9: "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power."
"They" is obviously those who do not know God, who do not obey the gospel, from v. 8)
"will be punished" is τίσουσιν, which means "recompensed" and is always used negatively, hence "pay the penalty; suffer punishment."
The second part that is translated in "will be punished" is δίκην, that means "penal justice after due process of law; judgment; sentence." It also implies the negative: those who don't know God and don't obey will face the just consequences for their attitudes and actions, and the penalty of punishment will be meted out in just form.
That's where we are so far. But what are they punished with??? ὄλεθρον, a word that variously means "corruption; ruin; death; destruction." The context has to give us the real thought (which is where interpretation comes in). But the destruction/ruin/death is actually described for us by Paul: their "destruction" is that they will be shut out from the presence of the Lord. This word "destruction" is used in a lot of places in the Bible (Gal. 6.8; 1 Cor. 3.17; Phil. 1.28; 3.19; 2 Pet. 2.1, 3, and many more). So how do you read this? What is he saying?
Then we have the word translated "everlasting." It's αἰώνιον, which literally means "characterized by eons," and is translated "age-long; age-lasting; eternal; everlasting." It is the same word that is used of eternal life.
So what do we do with this? To me, "eternal" (characterized by eons) doesn't sound at all like annihilation (a sudden ending), but some kind of continuing state of being. Some would contend that it means a person dies and stays dead eternally, but to me that sounds far-fetched and not a real sensible way to look at it. And "destruction" is described as "shut out from the presence of the Lord, which sounds like the opposite of "and so we will be with the LORD forever" of 1 Thes. 4.17, so it sounds like a continuing state.
You can see why there are different opinions. You can see why there is the traditional view, but it can be argued against (and it is).
In my mind there's another piece of logic: annihilation doesn't strike me as fair. Somebody's a good person, but they don't know the Lord, and so when they die, it's over and they cease to exist. But then someone else lives barbaric life of murder and mayhem, abuse and evil, and when they die, it's over and they cease to exist. To me that doesn't seem fair. There's no punishment for what they did? Then it seems to me they got away with it, and then cease to exist. By the same token, just to be fair, many people don't see fairness in an eternity of hell for a finitude of sin—a mere 80 years. Wouldn't, say, 80,000 years of punishment suffice? According to the traditional view, no, they gotta take it for all eternity, even the good person but who doesn't know the Lord. To many that doesn't seem fair either.
To answer your question directly, while "destruction" as a term seems to imply the ceasing of something to exist, the end of verse seems to define it as a state of ruin that continues—but for how long? For "eternity", or for "age-lasting"? (Some would say the final "age" is defined by eternity. See? We're all into the game of wise and godly interpretation, trying to see what God meant, not what we'd prefer that it said.)
Is there a period of time after we die that we are given another opportunity to accept or deny Christ? Heb. 9.27 would seem to say, "Absolutely not." But can't Heb. 9.27 be true (people live, people die, and then people are judged), and yet the judgment be terminated after a time that's fair? Reconciliationists and semi-restorationists say that, yes, there comes a time when enough is enough, the punishment has been fair, and then God gives them opportunity to be reconciled. Some will, and some won't, and those who won't continue in eternal punishment (so the Scriptures turn out to be literally true after all, even though not every sinner is eternally rebellious and will be restored to some level of relationship).
These are complex and difficult matters, and are the subject of much discussion. Again, I rely on what I'm able to come to solid Biblical conclusion on: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. Though we can't be sure about the form or duration of that separation, this we can be sure of: it will be a horrible experience, and God will be fair about the form and duration of it. If you reject God, you take your chances. We can talk about hell, destruction, annihilation, reconciliation, and restoration for a long, long time, and they are productive and interesting discussions. But I won't fight with people about 'em. To me annihilationism isn't just, but neither is unmitigated and eternal hell. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, but where? Not sure. I can be sure that God is just, that hell is awful, and that I'll pay any price to be on the "heaven" side of the equation. And I think, after all, that's the point.
Great thoughts and good conversation. Our best bet is to start with the words themselves, because they have flexibility and nuances, and then we are left to interpret.
2 Thes. 1.9: "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power."
"They" is obviously those who do not know God, who do not obey the gospel, from v. 8)
"will be punished" is τίσουσιν, which means "recompensed" and is always used negatively, hence "pay the penalty; suffer punishment."
The second part that is translated in "will be punished" is δίκην, that means "penal justice after due process of law; judgment; sentence." It also implies the negative: those who don't know God and don't obey will face the just consequences for their attitudes and actions, and the penalty of punishment will be meted out in just form.
That's where we are so far. But what are they punished with??? ὄλεθρον, a word that variously means "corruption; ruin; death; destruction." The context has to give us the real thought (which is where interpretation comes in). But the destruction/ruin/death is actually described for us by Paul: their "destruction" is that they will be shut out from the presence of the Lord. This word "destruction" is used in a lot of places in the Bible (Gal. 6.8; 1 Cor. 3.17; Phil. 1.28; 3.19; 2 Pet. 2.1, 3, and many more). So how do you read this? What is he saying?
Then we have the word translated "everlasting." It's αἰώνιον, which literally means "characterized by eons," and is translated "age-long; age-lasting; eternal; everlasting." It is the same word that is used of eternal life.
So what do we do with this? To me, "eternal" (characterized by eons) doesn't sound at all like annihilation (a sudden ending), but some kind of continuing state of being. Some would contend that it means a person dies and stays dead eternally, but to me that sounds far-fetched and not a real sensible way to look at it. And "destruction" is described as "shut out from the presence of the Lord, which sounds like the opposite of "and so we will be with the LORD forever" of 1 Thes. 4.17, so it sounds like a continuing state.
You can see why there are different opinions. You can see why there is the traditional view, but it can be argued against (and it is).
In my mind there's another piece of logic: annihilation doesn't strike me as fair. Somebody's a good person, but they don't know the Lord, and so when they die, it's over and they cease to exist. But then someone else lives barbaric life of murder and mayhem, abuse and evil, and when they die, it's over and they cease to exist. To me that doesn't seem fair. There's no punishment for what they did? Then it seems to me they got away with it, and then cease to exist. By the same token, just to be fair, many people don't see fairness in an eternity of hell for a finitude of sin—a mere 80 years. Wouldn't, say, 80,000 years of punishment suffice? According to the traditional view, no, they gotta take it for all eternity, even the good person but who doesn't know the Lord. To many that doesn't seem fair either.
To answer your question directly, while "destruction" as a term seems to imply the ceasing of something to exist, the end of verse seems to define it as a state of ruin that continues—but for how long? For "eternity", or for "age-lasting"? (Some would say the final "age" is defined by eternity. See? We're all into the game of wise and godly interpretation, trying to see what God meant, not what we'd prefer that it said.)
Is there a period of time after we die that we are given another opportunity to accept or deny Christ? Heb. 9.27 would seem to say, "Absolutely not." But can't Heb. 9.27 be true (people live, people die, and then people are judged), and yet the judgment be terminated after a time that's fair? Reconciliationists and semi-restorationists say that, yes, there comes a time when enough is enough, the punishment has been fair, and then God gives them opportunity to be reconciled. Some will, and some won't, and those who won't continue in eternal punishment (so the Scriptures turn out to be literally true after all, even though not every sinner is eternally rebellious and will be restored to some level of relationship).
These are complex and difficult matters, and are the subject of much discussion. Again, I rely on what I'm able to come to solid Biblical conclusion on: Those who turn away from God will be separated from the life of God. Though we can't be sure about the form or duration of that separation, this we can be sure of: it will be a horrible experience, and God will be fair about the form and duration of it. If you reject God, you take your chances. We can talk about hell, destruction, annihilation, reconciliation, and restoration for a long, long time, and they are productive and interesting discussions. But I won't fight with people about 'em. To me annihilationism isn't just, but neither is unmitigated and eternal hell. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, but where? Not sure. I can be sure that God is just, that hell is awful, and that I'll pay any price to be on the "heaven" side of the equation. And I think, after all, that's the point.