by jimwalton » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:34 pm
I can't help, while I'm reading your text and trying to figure out your perspective, that you're being a bit naive. You don't seem to recognize the palpable presence of evil in this world, the propensity to power, and the ease of violence. The Middle East is always an example, and ISIS the most recent manifestation. But we could also look to the warlords of Africa, the rampant and ubiquitous human trafficking, and the oppression of basic human rights around the world. Any entity truly interested in the curbing of violence and evil must be prepared not with the flowers of peace or a sharp word of rebuke. It is absolutely true that there has to be a legitimate basis by those who are righteous to use a qualified and justifiable use of force to contain and subdue violence. Whether Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Joshua Blahyi, Muammar Gaddafi, or Robert Mugabe, legitimate use of moral force is the controlling discipline of truth, justice, and authority in action. Without moral force, violent force would destroy the world as we know it. Again, reference the names above, and more.
> an all knowing, all powerful god should be able to use reason (or some other non-violent method) to help set evil-doers on a better path.
Welcome to the Bible, where God uses reason, history, intervention, spoken and written messages to appeal to your reason to help set you on a better path. But if you refuse all reasonable appeals, what is left but a judge and jury to evaluate your rebellion and pronounce judgment?
> God requires violence to forgive.
God didn't "make up" the rules; the rules are the substance of his being (his nature) and the necessary framework of creation. God is life; all that is separated from God is therefore death. The only way to conquer death is from the inside: to die and show that it has no power over you. To enter death and overpower it. God could NOT have chosen to forgive without a murder. You don't understand reality. Death was the only possible result of rebellion against life and separating from it. It's the meaning of the sacrificial system and the significance of the crucifixion.
> It's a barbaric, violent God.
Since death stole life by entering life and killing it, the only way to restore life was by entering death and killing it. It's not only a legal transaction but a transaction of the very nature of the universe.
> It's the reason why so many mental health professionals are calling for prison reform.
Of course there should be prison reform. I don't disagree with that one bit. But that doesn't mean we should give up on our sense of and enforcement of justice. If justice is not systemic, then anarchy will be.
> If he's going to punish me for not being able to believe in him, then he's punishing me for something out of my control.
NOT BEING ABLE TO? There's a twist that almost snuck by me. You may choose not to, but it's undeniably within your control.
> To punish people for refusing to worship you is egomaniacal.
It's only egomaniacal if said honor is unjustified, and it's just to fulfill the deviant needs of a maniacal ego. But what if the subject is worthy? What if the subject has your well-being in mind, not his own? Did you have any teachers in school that you respected? Would you accuse them of egomanicism because they demanded that you respect their authority? Not if they deserved your respect and had your well-being in mind. Welcome to the Bible. God is both worthy and loving.
> Why create life just to force it to worship you?
It's not a matter of credit, but life and death. If you're driving toward a cliff, Thelma and Louise style, and I'm yelling and screaming at you to hit the brake, stop, reconsider, pleading not to do this, and you yell back at me, "You're so full of your own opinions. You think you know everything. You're such a prick." You know, I'm sorry, but you've misinterpreted by motives and actions. God knows that the worship of any created thing will lead you to death. He knows that refusing to acknowledge the truth will lead you further into darkness. So instead he says, "I am the only one who is life. I am the only one who can save you from death. Look to me. Trust me. Follow me." And you're response? "Oh, you're so egomaniacal and petty!" You know, I'm sorry, but you've missed the whole point.
> Why create humans knowing that every single one of them, without exception ... will sin?
It only make sense if at the same time he creates a plan to save them. A plan of mercy, grace, love, and self-sacrifice. Welcome to the Bible.
I can't help, while I'm reading your text and trying to figure out your perspective, that you're being a bit naive. You don't seem to recognize the palpable presence of evil in this world, the propensity to power, and the ease of violence. The Middle East is always an example, and ISIS the most recent manifestation. But we could also look to the warlords of Africa, the rampant and ubiquitous human trafficking, and the oppression of basic human rights around the world. Any entity truly interested in the curbing of violence and evil must be prepared not with the flowers of peace or a sharp word of rebuke. It is absolutely true that there has to be a legitimate basis by those who are righteous to use a qualified and justifiable use of force to contain and subdue violence. Whether Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Joshua Blahyi, Muammar Gaddafi, or Robert Mugabe, legitimate use of moral force is the controlling discipline of truth, justice, and authority in action. Without moral force, violent force would destroy the world as we know it. Again, reference the names above, and more.
> an all knowing, all powerful god should be able to use reason (or some other non-violent method) to help set evil-doers on a better path.
Welcome to the Bible, where God uses reason, history, intervention, spoken and written messages to appeal to your reason to help set you on a better path. But if you refuse all reasonable appeals, what is left but a judge and jury to evaluate your rebellion and pronounce judgment?
> God requires violence to forgive.
God didn't "make up" the rules; the rules are the substance of his being (his nature) and the necessary framework of creation. God is life; all that is separated from God is therefore death. The only way to conquer death is from the inside: to die and show that it has no power over you. To enter death and overpower it. God could NOT have chosen to forgive without a murder. You don't understand reality. Death was the only possible result of rebellion against life and separating from it. It's the meaning of the sacrificial system and the significance of the crucifixion.
> It's a barbaric, violent God.
Since death stole life by entering life and killing it, the only way to restore life was by entering death and killing it. It's not only a legal transaction but a transaction of the very nature of the universe.
> It's the reason why so many mental health professionals are calling for prison reform.
Of course there should be prison reform. I don't disagree with that one bit. But that doesn't mean we should give up on our sense of and enforcement of justice. If justice is not systemic, then anarchy will be.
> If he's going to punish me for not being able to believe in him, then he's punishing me for something out of my control.
NOT BEING ABLE TO? There's a twist that almost snuck by me. You may choose not to, but it's undeniably within your control.
> To punish people for refusing to worship you is egomaniacal.
It's only egomaniacal if said honor is unjustified, and it's just to fulfill the deviant needs of a maniacal ego. But what if the subject is worthy? What if the subject has your well-being in mind, not his own? Did you have any teachers in school that you respected? Would you accuse them of egomanicism because they demanded that you respect their authority? Not if they deserved your respect and had your well-being in mind. Welcome to the Bible. God is both worthy and loving.
> Why create life just to force it to worship you?
It's not a matter of credit, but life and death. If you're driving toward a cliff, Thelma and Louise style, and I'm yelling and screaming at you to hit the brake, stop, reconsider, pleading not to do this, and you yell back at me, "You're so full of your own opinions. You think you know everything. You're such a prick." You know, I'm sorry, but you've misinterpreted by motives and actions. God knows that the worship of any created thing will lead you to death. He knows that refusing to acknowledge the truth will lead you further into darkness. So instead he says, "I am the only one who is life. I am the only one who can save you from death. Look to me. Trust me. Follow me." And you're response? "Oh, you're so egomaniacal and petty!" You know, I'm sorry, but you've missed the whole point.
> Why create humans knowing that every single one of them, without exception ... will sin?
It only make sense if at the same time he creates a plan to save them. A plan of mercy, grace, love, and self-sacrifice. Welcome to the Bible.