> In Matthew’s case, the word “worship” here can also mean bowing in respect (see Acts 10:25, Rev 3:9).

Yes. The Greek word for worship is προσκυνέω. It means "to bow the knee." In Greek, when one bows the knee to God it is worship, and when one bows the knee to a ruler or another kind of master, it's a sign of respect. But you were saying that Saul worshipped Samuel in 1 Sam. 28.14, which is not true.

Never elsewhere in Matthew do we see the disciples greeting Jesus with a bow of respect. In the context of Matthew 28.17, moreover, it doesn't make sense to say that some bowed with respect but others were having second thoughts.

> Who’s doing the clasping in this verse? It was the women. They told the disciples, but the disciples didn’t believe them. So this isn’t an argument.

Where do you get that the disciples didn't believe them? You said we're sticking in Matthew alone. Where does it say the disciples didn't believe the women?

> Really? How about Luke 24:37 “They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.”

I thought you said we were sticking with Matthew alone. It's what you been pressing me since the beginning: "No, only Matthew." You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You can't dip into other Gospels when it's convenient to you, but forbid me to do so.

So if we're allowed to dip into Luke, when they first see Jesus they consider that he may be a ghost since they have no paradigm by which to process a physical resurrection. But he immediately assures them he's not a ghost by eating something. That means by the time they get to the mountainside in Matthew, they are confident he's not a ghost, and wouldn't be having second thoughts about that. So not only does my argument not fail, but you bolstered it by referencing Luke.

> ONE. Hmm. It's incredulous to think they would worship someone they didn't believe in. That they preached the physical resurrection of Jesus is unarguable (Acts 2.31-32; 3.13; 4.2; 1 Cor. 15, et al.).

I’m not arguing that they remained in permanent doubt. Clearly, they came to believe in a physical resurrection. In this moment, however, they had doubts.

> The Hebrew word for worship is שׁחה (shahhah). That is not the term used here. Saul is bowing as a sign of respect, which was very common in their culture.

In Matthew’s case, the word “worship” here can also mean bowing in respect (see Acts 10:25, Rev 3:9).

> The word "clasped" is ἐκράτησαν: "to seize; to hold." And "feet" (πόδας) denotes not merely the foot, but also the leg. They knew he was no ghost.

Who’s doing the clasping in this verse? It was the women. They told the disciples, but the disciples didn’t believe them. So this isn’t an argument.

> But that doesn't mean they're having second thoughts or think they're seeing a ghost. Those conclusions are non sequiturs. We don't have any evidence that would lead us in that direction.

Really? How about Luke 24:37 “They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.” Keep in mind this all takes place AFTER the women had already reported to them that they saw and touched Jesus. The disciples STILL believed he was a ghost. So even if we take other gospels into consideration, your argument still fails. The disciples didn’t believe even when the women told them they grasped Jesus.

It's a solid understanding that through all the Gospels the disciples are confused about the identity, purpose, and destiny of Jesus. Mark is particularly brutal on them. They don't come to understanding until Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit comes upon them. Then, and only then, do all things come clear.

ONE. Hmm. It's incredulous to think they would worship someone they didn't believe in. That they preached the physical resurrection of Jesus is unarguable (Acts 2.31-32; 3.13; 4.2; 1 Cor. 15, et al.).

> Even Saul ‘worshipped’ the ghost of Samuel (1 Sam 28:14).

The Hebrew word for worship is שׁחה (shahhah). That is not the term used here. Saul is bowing as a sign of respect, which was very common in their culture.

> It wouldn’t be surprising for some of the disciples to worship what they perceive to be the ghost of Jesus.

This is not possible. Remember that people had already seen Jesus and grasped him (Mt. 28.9), and those people reported to the disciples what they had seen and done. We know this for a fact because v. 16 has them going to the mountain to which the women had instructed them. Even if we take just Matthew's account, which isn't the whole story but is what you want to do, your theory doesn't hold. The word "clasped" is ἐκράτησαν: "to seize; to hold." And "feet" (πόδας) denotes not merely the foot, but also the leg. They knew he was no ghost.

TWO. Of course worship doesn't equate to their belief in a bodily resurrection. Worship is their act of veneration. But we can see from their future behavior that they clearly did believe in a bodily resurrection, and I showed above that the report that came to them would have been that of a bodily resurrection. You have to twist the text to deny a bodily resurrection.

FOUR. "So you agree then that the disciples’ faith was less than it should be when they saw Jesus?" Of course. Even my faith is still not where it should be. Faith is progressive. At this point they were still processing what had happened and what was still happening. C'mon. They're human. They know physical resurrection is impossible, and yet, here they were seeing it with their very eyes in an indubitable manner, just as they had seen him calm the storm, heal, raise the dead, and walk on the water. They had seen him transfigured (Mt. 17.1-13). Jesus was very disequilibrating. It took processing. Not until the Holy Spirit came in Acts 2 does it all come clear to them.

But that doesn't mean they're having second thoughts or think they're seeing a ghost. Those conclusions are non sequiturs. We don't have any evidence that would lead us in that direction.

No I’m not a Christian.

1. Matthew doesn’t say they believed. It says they worshipped but some doubted. One can worship without believing that they’re looking at a physically resurrected Jesus. Even Saul ‘worshipped’ the ghost of Samuel (1 Sam 28:14). It wouldn’t be surprising for some of the disciples to worship what they perceive to be the ghost of Jesus.

2. Same point as above. Worship does not equate to believing in a bodily resurrection.

3. Sure.

4. “It indicates that their faith was less than it should be.” Exactly. So you agree then that the disciples’ faith was less than it should be when they saw Jesus?

> I guess this just reveals a fundamental difference in the way we approach Scripture.

Yep, I guess so. Each book is taken on its own, but definitely part of the whole. All Scripture is God-breathed. We let the Bible interpret the Bible. We take each book in its era, regarding its author, its intent and its audience, but we also take the entire Bible as coming from a single source: God (2 Tim. 3.16; 2 Pet. 1.21).

> The NT is a collection of 27 individual books with individual authors each with different beliefs, backgrounds, upbringings, and practices. We should treat it as such.

Yeah, I guess we will never come to agreement about this. The first sentence is not even true. 27 books, yes, and individual authors, of course, with different backgrounds, yes, but they all had the same belief. There's the key, and that's why they're integrated and mutually interpretable.

> It’s not about “letting the Bible explain itself”.

I don't know if you're a Christian or not, or what your training is, but this is a fundamental principle of biblical hermeneutics. i would guess you'd only deny this if you are not a Christian and you approach the Bible a just a collection of ancient (and therefore flawed, legendary, fictional) texts.

> Let me ask you this: If we take Matthew by itself without trying to harmonize it with other gospels, do you think that the disciples doubting would at least be a plausible interpretation?

I don't, because most of the evidence I gave you was from the Gospel of Matthew itself. My main list was: "What we know is...

1. They all believed (Jn. 20.20) — but I could put Mt. 28.17 here.
2. They all worshipped (Mt. 28.17)
3. They all had different expectations about what would happen when the Messiah came (Mt 11.2-6; 24.3; Lk. 22.38, to name a few)
4. When this word was used in Matt. 14.31, it doesn't indicate that they didn't believe what they just saw. It indicates that their faith was less than it should be.

They're Matthew texts. Even if you insist on staying in the narrow band of Matthew alone, I think my assertion stands.

>the New Testament comes as a unified set of 27 books. One of the first and primary rules of Bible interpretation is "Let the Bible explain itself." Since the Gospels are viewing the same individual from 4 vantage points, we do not separate them in interpretation.

I guess this just reveals a fundamental difference in the way we approach Scripture. The NT shouldn’t be looked at as a unified set of books. That’s how you end up with all kinds of serious errors in interpretation. The NT is a collection of 27 individual books with individual authors each with different beliefs, backgrounds, upbringings, and practices. We should treat it as such. It’s not about “letting the Bible explain itself”. It’s about letting each book explain itself.

Let me ask you this: If we take Matthew by itself without trying to harmonize it with other gospels, do you think that the disciples doubting would at least be a plausible interpretation?

> So it's easy to see how their heads are all in different places, and there are different degrees of understanding and digesting of what is going on.

Fair enough. I disagree with your conclusion, but it’s at least possible that that’s what Matthew is communicating here.

> I was referencing Matthew, not John.

We take all of the what the Gospels say as necessary to understanding the story. You wouldn't assume that Surah 4 can't be used to explain something about Surah 3 in the Qur'an, nor that it was illegitimate to use the Bhagavad Gita to comment on something in the Vedas. the New Testament comes as a unified set of 27 books. One of the first and primary rules of Bible interpretation is "Let the Bible explain itself." Since the Gospels are viewing the same individual from 4 vantage points, we do not separate them in interpretation.

> According to your interpretation, “doubt” is referring to the disciples being blown away and grappling with the mystery of Christ’s resurrection.

What I said was, "Here somebody has come back from the dead—they saw him die—but, sure enough, he is standing right there in front of them as he has before. According to the record, he was not the same as he was before. There was something different about him, and even his closest friends and disciples were struggling for thoughts and words."

> The question is, why would only some of them be blown away? Why wouldn’t all of them be grappling with this mystery?

You know. You already know this. People are different personalities, first of all. Some are optimists, and some pessimists. Some lunge forward while others hold back. Some are sanguine, some choleric, some melancholic, and others phlegmatic. Some people are more easily convinced while others take more time and more evidence. You know this. The disciples had also had different experiences. Peter and John were the first disciples at the tomb and had a different set of eyes than those coming later who had already heard other things. Jesus had a specific conversation with Peter (Jn. 21.15-23). Thomas had missed, apparently, being at the tomb and seeing Jesus in the room that first night. He didn't see until a week later.

So it's easy to see how their heads are all in different places, and there are different degrees of understanding and digesting of what is going on.

> This is quite a presumption that I would say the text and the New Testament don't support. The indication of John 20.20ff. is that they all believed,

I was referencing Matthew, not John. A crucial key of textual criticism is letting each gospel speak for itself. We can’t assume that they’re all saying the same thing. In fact the whole point of this discussion is to determine whether or not these texts are in harmony. You seem to have already assumed your conclusion here by referencing other gospels to support your point.

> I didn't say that only some were blown away. They all worshipped.

The text says “They worshipped but some doubted.” According to your interpretation, “doubt” is referring to the disciples being blown away and grappling with the mystery of Christ’s resurrection. The question is, why would only some of them be blown away? Why wouldn’t all of them be grappling with this mystery? Why doesn’t it simply say “They worshipped but doubted”?

> I think it’s fair to say that some of them had doubts about what they were seeing in the moment and only later did they believe it was truly the risen Christ.

This is quite a presumption that I would say the text and the New Testament don't support. The indication of John 20.20ff. is that they all believed, and this was the night of the resurrection itself. Later we read that the one who was not present at that occasion, Thomas, also believed and worshipped (Jn. 20.28-29). We have no reason to think that someone had doubts and only later did they believe it was truly the risen Christ. We have to follow the evidence where it leads, and that's not where it leads.

> Your interpretation doesn’t explain why the author would point out that only some of them were blown away and bewildered rather than all.

I didn't say that only some were blown away. They all worshipped.

> The word “some” is important here and it’s meant to distinguish the disciples who believed wholeheartedly vs those who had doubts.

Only if you translate and interpret distadzo as "doubts" rather than "thinking two thoughts." Dr. Craig Keener speculates that perhaps they are thinking two thoughts because again what is happening "doesn't fit current expectations of the end time: all the dead were to be raised together, not the Messiah first" (in Jewish expectation, nothing in Scripture to that effect). That interpretation could make sense because all through Jesus's ministry they had been misunderstanding things he said and did because their messianic expectation was a different line of thinking.

What bothers me here is that you so quickly and easily want to come to a conclusion of thinking the worst, when the evidences at hand lead us elsewhere. They were all convinced, they all worshipped, and they certainly had had different expectations than what was happening here. But you want to jump to the conclusion that some weren't buying it.

> I would say that a more accurate translation would be “they worshipped but some had second thoughts.”

Well, that's an interesting stab at a translation, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's "a more accurate" one. Be careful not to presume you know what form their "doubts" took. What we know is

1. They all believed (Jn. 20.20)
2. They all worshipped (Mt. 28.17)
3. They all had different expectations about what would happen when the Messiah came (Mt 11.2-6; 24.3; Lk. 22.38, to name a few)
4. When this word was used in Matt. 14.31, it doesn't indicate that they didn't believe what they just saw. It indicates that their faith was less than it should be.

And you have concluded some had second thoughts. It's just not there.

> Matt 14:31. However, in that passage, the word is not used of the disciples in bewilderment. It’s not describing the disciples’ reaction to Jesus walking on water. Rather, it’s describing Peter’s lack of faith when he took steps toward Jesus. Jesus even tells us what he means by “doubt” here. He says “O ye of little faith, why did you doubt.” So you see, this whole thing is about faith.

Peter is obviously looking at Jesus (Mt. 14.29) and then started looking at the waves (14.30), and his mind went in two directions. Instead of trusting Jesus completely for what he was doing, "he was afraid." Peter's trust in the power of Christ, which motivated him to step out of the boat and walk on the water, because he was distracted by his dread of the wind and waves.

But we still have to define it by context in Matthew 28.17. At other points in Matthew, “little faith” is defined by the presence of worry (6.30), fear (8.26), and a lack of understanding (16.8). In other words, you are remiss to jump to a certain conclusion about distadzo meaning that they doubted enough, despite seeing Jesus right in front of their eyes, that they had second thoughts and only later did they believe it was truly the risen Christ. This is at least the fourth time they've seen him.

> So likewise, just as Peter doubted on his walk toward Jesus, some of the disciples also doubted that they were seeing a physically resurrected Jesus.

When Peter was walking towards Jesus, he was not doubting that Jesus was walking on the water or that he was. When the disciples saw Jesus on the mountain, it's not plausible that they were doubting that they were seeing a physically resurrected Jesus. Other kinds of thoughts are more plausible, given the evidence we have.

> Then the writer says, without implying a contrast, that some distazo. I think we have to wrench the word right out of context and sensibility to claim that it means they didn't believe, they were not convinced, that they were pouting and doubting, and that later they lied about believing in his resurrection.

I don’t think we have to go that far. I think it’s fair to say that some of them had doubts about what they were seeing in the moment and only later did they believe it was truly the risen Christ.

> Your interpretation doesn’t explain why the author would point out that only some of them were blown away and bewildered rather than all. Why not simply say “they worshipped but doubted”? The word “some” is important here and it’s meant to distinguish the disciples who believed wholeheartedly vs those who had doubts.

I would say that a more accurate translation would be “they worshipped but some had second thoughts.” As you pointed out, it’s the same word used in Matt 14:31. However, in that passage, the word is not used of the disciples in bewilderment. It’s not describing the disciples’ reaction to Jesus walking on water. Rather, it’s describing Peter’s lack of faith when he took steps toward Jesus. Jesus even tells us what he means by “doubt” here. He says “O ye of little faith, why did you doubt.” So you see, this whole thing is about faith. It’s not about being blown away or grappling with some mystery. Peter simply started off in faith and ended in doubt. The text is pretty straightforward about that.

So likewise, just as Peter doubted on his walk toward Jesus, some of the disciples also doubted that they were seeing a physically resurrected Jesus.