by jimwalton » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:24 am
I'm glad to answer your questions and have a discussion with you, but this may get long as you have asked many deep questions.
The best way to be a servant of God is by following the teachings that are found in God's Word, the Bible. I have no interest in spiritual "truths" that humans make up. That's why I believe in the Trinity: It is a biblical doctrine. But let's talk.
> John 1.1. Since this scripture said that Jesus was with God, then doesn't that mean that Jesus and the Almighty God are two separate individuals?
No, the verse doesn't mean that, because we have to look at the whole verse. Jesus and Almighty God are obviously and clearly portrayed as both distinct and yet sharing a unified essence. At the beginning of the verse, Jesus is shown to be eternal, as God is eternal; He had no beginning. The second phrase of the verse (and the Word was with God) presents Jesus as distinct from the Father, God (YHWH, see Jn. 9.29), but also on a plane of equality and face-to-face relationship. "With" implies an association with another on terms of equality (Mk. 6.3). the 3rd phrase of the verse (and the Word was God) shows us there is more to understanding Jesus than just "two separate individuals." Jesus and the Father YHWH share the same nature and essence. Since we are bound to subscribe to the teachings that are found in God's Word, we must be committed to the ideas that Jesus is distinct from the Father while simultaneously being one in nature and essence with YHWH God.
> 1 Cor.8.5
You have missed a very important part of the translation. In 1 Cor. 8.5, Paul uses a concessive clause "For even if there are so-called gods..." He is allowing the term not because it's true but instead for the sake of continuing the discussion. By his grammar, he is denying the real existence of these entities to whom the false title of "god" is ascribed. The whole pagan mythology is nothing but fable and fiction—the work of a lively imagination. There is no similarity between this text and the claims of Jesus's deity.
> 2 Cor. 4.4
It's indubitably true that Satan is considered a god by many humans. He is given honor and even at times worship. Paul uses it here to give the same idea as Jesus did in Jn. 12.31; 14.30. Satan has been delegated by God to a position of rule on the Earth. Satan claimed to rule over the world in the temptations with Jesus. Taking all the teachings of the NT together, there is no reason to conclude that Satan is considered divine or to share deity with YHWH, as Jesus does.
> But when we look at John 1:1, it never says that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, which is a big difference.
But John 1.1 does indeed say exactly that: "...and the Word WAS GOD." John uses the word θεόν, which was a generic word to indicate deity. Throughout the Gospel, John uses the term generally in the same way. In John 5.18; 6.27; 8.41; et al., he gets more specific, where "God" refers to the Father. In John 9.29 he uses the term to refer to YHWH who spoke to Moses.
> John 10.30 ... Don't people who play with teammates act as "one" in order for them to win a game?
Of course. There are different ways to use the term "one." It can be a cardinal number, a pronoun, a point of agreement, a point of unity, a point of emphasis. It can be a point of distinction (I, for one, disagree with everyone else) or a point of non-distinction (we were all of one mind). The context of the Gospel of John, of chapter 10, and of the section in particular where Jesus used the sentence "I and the Father are one" bears out that Jesus's meaning is that He and the Father YHWH are one in essence or nature. "One" is neuter—"one thing" and not "one person." Identity is not asserted, but essential unity is. He is not saying He and the Father share mutual goals like a band or a sports team, but instead that they share an essential unity of essence.
> John 10.29
By the way, the Living Bible is not an accurate translation but rather a loose paraphrase.
Jesus says the Father is greater than all. "Greatness" is another term that has a wide range of possible meanings: (1) spatially larger (measure: greater height; greater size), (2) larger number (quantity), (3) greater intensity (a great calm, for instance, a great deed), (4) higher rank or dignity, (5) greater power, (6) greater importance, (7) more extraordinary, (8) older. (9) more deserving of honor.
That the Father is superior to Jesus is not a point that Jesus has been making nor a concept He has been developing. He has been clear that the Father has a particular role to play, and the Son, in turn, also has a particular role to play. He has also been clear that He and the Father are one (Jn. 1.1; 10.30; 14.9).
Jesus’s points about the Father have been (1) His love for the world 3.16, (2) He enables people to do good deeds 3.21, (3) He deserves worship and honor 4.23-24; 5.23, 12.28, (4) He is always at work 5.17, 36, (5) raises the dead and gives life 5.21-30; 6. 33 et al., (6) Has sent and approves of the Son 6.27, 45. The main points are that the Father draws people to Himself to give them salvation, He gives people life through the Son, and He sent the Son to reveal Himself.
What then did Jesus mean by “the Father is greater”? This verse is a re-cap of vv. 1-4: I am going away; I am coming back; you should not be troubled but be glad; I am going to the Father. Then Jesus emphasizes his own uniqueness and his own status: Jesus is the preparer, the way, the truth, the life, the revelation of the Father, the one who is “in” the Father, etc. The Father is the home owner (2), the goal and destination (6), the One at work (10), the sender (16, 25).
What we have is a scene of equality in essence but distinction in activity (in their roles). When Jesus says “the Father is greater than I,” He can mean nothing other than during Jesus’s incarnation, the Father has a role as Sender that outranks Jesus’s role as the One sent.
> Matthew 4.10
By the way, the New World Translation is a notoriously unreliable translation, proven to have skewed and altered many texts.
Yes, God alone is to be worshiped. And yet numerous times in Matthew, such worship is accorded Jesus after miracles, showing that Matthew was dedicated to the idea of showing that and giving evidence throughout his Gospel that Jesus is God.
> So since no where in God's Word the Bible does it mentions the Trinity doctrine
This is not true. The Bible is filled with the Trinity doctrine. There are dozens of texts that show it.
I'm glad to answer your questions and have a discussion with you, but this may get long as you have asked many deep questions.
The best way to be a servant of God is by following the teachings that are found in God's Word, the Bible. I have no interest in spiritual "truths" that humans make up. That's why I believe in the Trinity: It is a biblical doctrine. But let's talk.
> John 1.1. Since this scripture said that Jesus was with God, then doesn't that mean that Jesus and the Almighty God are two separate individuals?
No, the verse doesn't mean that, because we have to look at the whole verse. Jesus and Almighty God are obviously and clearly portrayed as both distinct and yet sharing a unified essence. At the beginning of the verse, Jesus is shown to be eternal, as God is eternal; He had no beginning. The second phrase of the verse (and the Word was with God) presents Jesus as distinct from the Father, God (YHWH, see Jn. 9.29), but also on a plane of equality and face-to-face relationship. "With" implies an association with another on terms of equality (Mk. 6.3). the 3rd phrase of the verse (and the Word was God) shows us there is more to understanding Jesus than just "two separate individuals." Jesus and the Father YHWH share the same nature and essence. Since we are bound to subscribe to the teachings that are found in God's Word, we must be committed to the ideas that Jesus is distinct from the Father while simultaneously being one in nature and essence with YHWH God.
> 1 Cor.8.5
You have missed a very important part of the translation. In 1 Cor. 8.5, Paul uses a concessive clause "For even if there are so-called gods..." He is allowing the term not because it's true but instead for the sake of continuing the discussion. By his grammar, he is denying the real existence of these entities to whom the false title of "god" is ascribed. The whole pagan mythology is nothing but fable and fiction—the work of a lively imagination. There is no similarity between this text and the claims of Jesus's deity.
> 2 Cor. 4.4
It's indubitably true that Satan is considered a god by many humans. He is given honor and even at times worship. Paul uses it here to give the same idea as Jesus did in Jn. 12.31; 14.30. Satan has been delegated by God to a position of rule on the Earth. Satan claimed to rule over the world in the temptations with Jesus. Taking all the teachings of the NT together, there is no reason to conclude that Satan is considered divine or to share deity with YHWH, as Jesus does.
> But when we look at John 1:1, it never says that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God, which is a big difference.
But John 1.1 does indeed say exactly that: "...and the Word WAS GOD." John uses the word θεόν, which was a generic word to indicate deity. Throughout the Gospel, John uses the term generally in the same way. In John 5.18; 6.27; 8.41; et al., he gets more specific, where "God" refers to the Father. In John 9.29 he uses the term to refer to YHWH who spoke to Moses.
> John 10.30 ... Don't people who play with teammates act as "one" in order for them to win a game?
Of course. There are different ways to use the term "one." It can be a cardinal number, a pronoun, a point of agreement, a point of unity, a point of emphasis. It can be a point of distinction (I, for one, disagree with everyone else) or a point of non-distinction (we were all of one mind). The context of the Gospel of John, of chapter 10, and of the section in particular where Jesus used the sentence "I and the Father are one" bears out that Jesus's meaning is that He and the Father YHWH are one in essence or nature. "One" is neuter—"one thing" and not "one person." Identity is not asserted, but essential unity is. He is not saying He and the Father share mutual goals like a band or a sports team, but instead that they share an essential unity of essence.
> John 10.29
By the way, the Living Bible is not an accurate translation but rather a loose paraphrase.
Jesus says the Father is greater than all. "Greatness" is another term that has a wide range of possible meanings: (1) spatially larger (measure: greater height; greater size), (2) larger number (quantity), (3) greater intensity (a great calm, for instance, a great deed), (4) higher rank or dignity, (5) greater power, (6) greater importance, (7) more extraordinary, (8) older. (9) more deserving of honor.
That the Father is superior to Jesus is not a point that Jesus has been making nor a concept He has been developing. He has been clear that the Father has a particular role to play, and the Son, in turn, also has a particular role to play. He has also been clear that He and the Father are one (Jn. 1.1; 10.30; 14.9).
Jesus’s points about the Father have been (1) His love for the world 3.16, (2) He enables people to do good deeds 3.21, (3) He deserves worship and honor 4.23-24; 5.23, 12.28, (4) He is always at work 5.17, 36, (5) raises the dead and gives life 5.21-30; 6. 33 et al., (6) Has sent and approves of the Son 6.27, 45. The main points are that the Father draws people to Himself to give them salvation, He gives people life through the Son, and He sent the Son to reveal Himself.
What then did Jesus mean by “the Father is greater”? This verse is a re-cap of vv. 1-4: I am going away; I am coming back; you should not be troubled but be glad; I am going to the Father. Then Jesus emphasizes his own uniqueness and his own status: Jesus is the preparer, the way, the truth, the life, the revelation of the Father, the one who is “in” the Father, etc. The Father is the home owner (2), the goal and destination (6), the One at work (10), the sender (16, 25).
What we have is a scene of equality in essence but distinction in activity (in their roles). When Jesus says “the Father is greater than I,” He can mean nothing other than during Jesus’s incarnation, the Father has a role as Sender that outranks Jesus’s role as the One sent.
> Matthew 4.10
By the way, the New World Translation is a notoriously unreliable translation, proven to have skewed and altered many texts.
Yes, God alone is to be worshiped. And yet numerous times in Matthew, such worship is accorded Jesus after miracles, showing that Matthew was dedicated to the idea of showing that and giving evidence throughout his Gospel that Jesus is God.
> So since no where in God's Word the Bible does it mentions the Trinity doctrine
This is not true. The Bible is filled with the Trinity doctrine. There are dozens of texts that show it.