Thanks for your comment. I'm glad to discuss this with you.

I don't agree that it's not logical to criticize a group of which I'm not a part. That would mean I'm not allowed to criticize politicians, can't find fault with adulterers, shouldn't say anything against child rapists, and certainly keep my mouth shut about people who are now marching the streets of American cities, burning buildings, ruining businesses, and shooting policemen.

But it doesn't make sense to me that I cannot criticize groups I'm not part of. I should be able to get to know LGBTQ+ people, understand them, love them, study about such things (theology and science), and if I come to the conclusion that the Bible calls it sin, that should be a logical and legitimate conclusion, even though I am not part of the group.

I agree that people come to false conclusions based on a lack of understand and misinformation, and we should all do everything possible not to be guilty of that.

I went to your website and tried to read it, but unfortunately I don't speak Spanish and so can't digest what's written there. Sorry. I would have to plug in every sentence into a translator, which would be more than tedious, very disruptive to a train of thought, and questionably accurate. If the site appears in English anywhere, please let me know.

Cada uno tiene su mentalidad, es normal lo que no es lógico es criticar grupos de los que no formas parte como son el colectivo LGBTQ+.

En muchas ocasiones esto pasa por propia incompresión y desinformación os dejo por aquí este post que lo explica de una forma muy consumible y para todos los públicos.

Historias, banderas y el porqué del movimiento.

https://www.banderaslgbt.com/


Rough Translation: Everyone has their own mentality, it is normal, what is not logical is to criticize groups of which you are not part, such as the LGBTQ + collective.

On many occasions this happens due to lack of understanding and misinformation. I leave you here this post that explains it in a very consumable way and for all audiences.

Stories, flags and the reason for the movement.

> That's true of course, but then if someone spends their whole life committing the sin of fornication, and never confesses or turns from it, because they were taught it wasn't wrong, then their sins would not be forgiven. Correct?

Correct, but in that case it's not the sin that was committed or the length of time they engaged in it, but only that they neglected or refused to repent. "Fornication" has nothing specific to do with this equation. You could put any sin in the blank and come up to the very same conclusion.

> Everyone sins, but some sins are forgiven and some aren't.

Correct. And any sin can be forgiven with confession and authentic repentance. Any sin.

> then those sins will keep them out of heaven.

Technically, no; it's the lack of repentance that keeps them out. Any sin can be forgiven. We all sin, so it's not technically sin that keeps us out of heaven. It's the lack of repentance for those sins that keeps us out. Those who sin and repent and who accept the nature of Jesus get in ; those who sin and don't repent and remain in their sin nature do not.

> Since people won't repent of sins they don't think are wrong, teaching falsely that homosexual sex is not sinful is a pretty bad thing to do.

I agree. I think such false teaching is a travesty and it's wrong. Those who teach falsely will be held to account for it.

> Obedience or disobedience is though - Jesus said not everyone that said Lord, Lord would enter the kingdom, and foretold that many would be surprised to learn they were not in a relationship with him at all.

Correct.

> How do you determine which sins are sins you can sin and still go to heaven?

We all sin all kinds of sin. No sin can keep us out of heaven. Only lack of repentance for those sins will keep us out. It's not the sins you commit, since we are all sinners, but how you treat those sins—either with repentance or not—that makes the difference.

> remember we're talking about sins that were never repented of

Again, sin is only part of the picture. We can't focus on just that. Even people who have the nature of Jesus in them continue to sin. But if we confess our sins, He forgives us, and those sins don't disqualify us for heaven as long as we have the nature of Jesus. And I'm sure that are sins I never ask forgiveness for, or sins of omission of which I may not even be aware, and God's grace covers those. As long as I belong to Jesus, my sins can be forgiven and the ones I don't confess or don't know about can be covered.

But a person who doesn't belong to Jesus is in a different boat. Those sins separate that person from God, and those sins are not and cannot be forgiven outside of Jesus.

> because the person that sinned them was taught by their church that it wasn't a sin.

I'm glad God is omniscient, because I surely am not. I am not in a place to be able to evaluate all the ins and outs of life, and all the small nuances that you're putting out here. I know there are very complex situations, and I'm not qualified to judge. But God is, and He will do it perfectly.

We do know, however, that someone who teaches falsely will be subject to judgment (Matt. 18.6-7; James 3.1, et al.). I work very hard to give people trustworthy answers and to teach accurately. It matters very much.

> Will there be unrepentant murderers in heaven, for example, or unrepentant adulterers?

Generally speaking, no. People who have the nature of Jesus in them repent of their sins, generally speaking.

> You singled out LGBTQ specifically as though it has some special exemption

No, I only singled out LGBTQ+ because the original poster did, and so it's been part of the conversation from the beginning as some kind of example. I don't think LGBTQ has any kind of special status. We know some sins are worse that others (John 19.11; Lk. 12.47-38), but the Bible doesn't give us the ranking list. Some are pretty obvious (murder is worse than petty theft), but most are not so obvious. We really have no idea where LGBTQ fits into the list, though some churches or Christians make it clearly #1. I don't make it #1, but I can't compose a list.

> If we have a relationship with Him, and we confess our sins and turn away from them, those sins are forgiven.

That's true of course, but then if someone spends their whole life committing the sin of fornication, and never confesses or turns from it, because they were taught it wasn't wrong, then their sins would not be forgiven. Correct?

So it seems like a pretty crucial thing in that case.

> It's not sin that keeps person out of heaven

Everyone sins, but some sins are forgiven and some aren't. If God doesn't forgive a person (because they don't submit to him and don't repent) then those sins will keep them out of heaven. Sin is the thing that separates us from God in the first place. Jesus said "unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish." Since people won't repent of sins they don't think are wrong, teaching falsely that homosexual sex is not sinful is a pretty bad thing to do.

> LGBTQ is not the criteria for heaven or hell.

Obedience or disobedience is though - Jesus said not everyone that said Lord, Lord would enter the kingdom, and foretold that many would be surprised to learn they were not in a relationship with him at all.

But it seems like you think that "yes, this is a sin, but it's a sin you can sin and still go to heaven." (Please correct me if I am wrong, usually when people say "so you're saying that" they get it wrong!)

How do you determine which sins are sins you can sin and still go to heaven? And remember we're talking about sins that were never repented of because the person that sinned them was taught by their church that it wasn't a sin. Will there be unrepentant murderers in heaven, for example, or unrepentant adulterers?

You singled out LGBTQ specifically as though it has some special exemption - would you say all the same things about other types of sins, or would you explain how LGBTQ got this special status?

I say that because the position a Christian takes about LGBTQ will not ultimately put someone in heaven or keep them out. Our salvation is based on the essentials (there is a God, Jesus is God, salvation is by a relationship with Jesus, etc.). Those are the core things that actually will keep you in a relationship with God or prevent one.

I am solidly convinced that the Bible teaches that same sex relationships are displeasing to God, do not reflect his holiness and righteousness, and are sin. So are many other things. It's not sin that keeps person out of heaven, even though our sins grieve God. If we have a relationship with Him, and we confess our sins and turn away from them, those sins are forgiven. It's no different with same-sex relationships. LGBTQ is not the criteria for heaven or hell. Even though I think that any Christian who approves of LGBTQ is disregarding the clear teaching of the Bible, there are many things that Christians believe and do that disregard the clear teaching of the Bible—but these things affect our relationship with God and our reward in heaven, not whether we get there or not. Does that help? If not, ask again and I'll try again.

When it comes right down to it, I have to focus on the essentials and learn to be tolerant about our differences.

...so why do you say it's okay to differ on LGBTQ then?

What Jim said. All of that.

We all do our best (I should hope) to study well and do our absolute best to discern truth. It's a fundamental quest of humankind: I need to find out what is true, subscribe to it, and live that way. I study very deeply, converse widely, read voraciously, and try to be as objective as possible. Hopefully we all do that (though I think that's a bit optimistic and ideal on my part, but I've always been an optimist kind of person. Our current media and political environment is working hard to knock that right out of me, though ).

> For example you list LGBTQ as something people can differ about, but if it turns out that homosexual sex was a sin, then wouldn't preaching that it was good and right be a sin?

Many churches do preach that it is a sin, and I believe that the Bible teaches unequivocally that it is a sin. And if it's true that it's a sin (as I believe), then yes, it would be sin for preachers and churches to teach that it's good and right. We are all accountable for our thoughts and actions. If I'm wrong, I'll face the consequences of that. If someone else is wrong, they will the face the consequences.

> In Revelation, one of the churches in Asia was condemned for allowing a woman to teach that fornication was a good thing.

Yes, Revelation 2.20. She is rebuked (2.21) and called to repentance, but refused. She will be accountable to God not only for her false teaching but also for misleading others (2.22).

> God seemed to really not like that at all

God doesn't like whatever is not true, whatever doesn't lead to holiness, and whatever interferes with a person's relationship with Him.

> Fornication was something forbidden to all the gentiles in Acts 15.

Correct. Acts 15.29. But it was forbidden to Jews also. In this case it was a letter to the Gentiles, and that's why Gentiles are specifically mentioned.

> If you're opinion on LGBTQ involves promoting, supporting, or condoning fornication, I would think you'd be in for a bad time with God.

I agree with this statement also.

How do you determine which are the important things and which are the things you can be wrong about? For example you list LGBTQ as something people can differ about, but if it turns out that homosexual sex was a sin, then wouldn't preaching that it was good and right be a sin? In Revelation, one of the churches in Asia was condemned for allowing a woman to teach that fornication was a good thing. God seemed to really not like that at all. Fornication was something forbidden to all the gentiles in Acts 15. If you're opinion on LGBTQ involves promoting, supporting, or condoning fornication, I would think you'd be in for a bad time with God.

This really hits it on the head.

I mean, sure, there are the LARPers even in Christianity, but at the end of the day, Christians are going to disagree like anyone else and in anything else. We're each our own individual being, no matter what we otherwise may believe.