> Ok. So what? It is the generation Jesus is speaking to who will fail to escape Gehenna, the desolation of Jerusalem, and the eschatological day of judgement. Their towns will be leveled.

The "so what" is that I've already showed you that "generation" refers to more than Jesus's era, and Gehenna has to do with the day of judgment, not the destruction of Jerusalem. You keep both ignoring and denying the evidence, determined to hold to your position contrary to the evidence. That's the "so what."

> What are you trying to say with this? We both understand Gehenna as a place of future punishment and destruction.

What I've decisively shown is that Gehenna refers to future eschatological punishment and destruction, not the destruction of Jerusalem.

> Then you have to say that Jesus threatens "this generation" with both a postmortem Hell and the desolation of Jerusalem in the same breath (Matthew 23:32-38).

No, I've shown that he's referring to a postmortem Hell. It's a concept they could easily grasp.

> "All these things" can only refer to what Jesus has been threatening in his speech: the coming of the son of man, the desolating sacrilege, the end of the age etc. If "all these things" does not refer to those things, then what does it refer to?

I have said twice that the text is highly and deeply debated. You just can't take a solid position and claim, "This is for certain what it means."

> My point is that there's always a "this generation" of people who reject the revelation of God, refused to accept His messengers, and rebel against His Word.

Ok. So what? It is the generation Jesus is speaking to who will fail to escape Gehenna, the desolation of Jerusalem, and the eschatological day of judgement. Their towns will be leveled.

> In Mt. 5.22 when Jesus uses Gehenna He is referring to judgment over sin beyond human judgment. it became the symbol of the place of the future punishment of the wicked.
> In Mt. 5.29-30; 18.9; Mk. 9.43, 45, 47, Gehenna is the place of future punishment.
> In Mt. 10.28; Lk. 12.5, Gehenna is the place of ultimate destruction
> In Mt. 23.15, Gehenna represents those condemned by God.

What are you trying to say with this? We both understand Gehenna as a place of future punishment and destruction.
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> I'm convinced that the evidence is against that Gehenna refers to the "day of judgment against the cities."

Then you have to say that Jesus threatens "this generation" with both a postmortem Hell and the desolation of Jerusalem in the same breath (Matthew 23:32-38). This subtle distinction is asking far too much of Jesus' listeners. They can very easily be taken together as a description of what is to come upon specifically this generation. Notice there is no indication from Jesus that Gehenna has been holding people captive all throughout history. It's something new on the scene.

We might also look at how the word "judgment" is used in Matthew. Often it is used in the phrase "the day of judgment"—the eschatological day upon which "this generation" along with Capernaum and company will be destroyed, driven into the ground. It is also used in 5:21-26 where the phrase "the judgment" is used synonymously with "Gehenna of fire." It again appears most likely that "the judgment" here refers to "the day of judgment."
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> As I said, it is debated. I can see you have your opinion, but that doesn't make your perspective "the conclusion of the matter." Is it one or the other, or both? It's debated.

Jesus says "all these things will take place this generation passes away." "All these things" can only refer to what Jesus has been threatening in his speech: the coming of the son of man, the desolating sacrilege, the end of the age etc. If "all these things" does not refer to those things, then what does it refer to?

> They didn't personally murder the prophets of old but they are responsible for those deaths since they continued their father's work by killing Jesus.

They [i]didn't[/i] personally murder the prophets of old, and that's why "this generation" stretches further than those specific contemporaries. They are not responsible for the death of Abel and Zechariah, showing us the breadth of the scope of the godless people. There's [i]always[/i] a "this generation." And of course you're right that they continued their fathers' work by killing Jesus.

> Your point with the other "this generation" verses is not clear to me at all and appears ridiculous on the face of it. "This generation" refers to the group of people Jesus is speaking to.

My point is that there's always a "this generation" of people who reject the revelation of God, refused to accept His messengers, and rebel against His Word. In the days of Abel, "this generation" was Cain. In the days of Zechariah, "this generation" was unnamed hostile personnel who murdered the priest. In Jesus's day, "this generation" is the Pharisees and all those who reject Him as God's Son and the Messiah.

> I presume you mean with the postmortem Hell, not with the eschatological day of judgement over the earth.

Correct. As you mentioned, in the OT, this is a geographical term. It was the place of idol worship and occasional child sacrifice. It is a place of judgment because it was overthrown by Josiah (2 Ki. 23.10; Jer. 7.323). It became a dumping ground for filth, the bodies of animals, and occasionally some human body, like the body of a criminal. In the NT, the final judgment of the unrepentant is usually in view when the term Gehenna is used (Mt. 5.22, 29-30; 10.28; 18.9; 23.15, 33; Mk. 9.43, 45, 47; Lk. 12.5; James 3.6).

> Nor is it specified as a judgement over the dead. It has to be the same "day of judgement" that we find in 11:20-24 against the cities.

[list]* In Mt. 5.22 when Jesus uses Gehenna He is referring to judgment over sin beyond human judgment. it became the symbol of the place of the future punishment of the wicked.
* In Mt. 5.29-30; 18.9; Mk. 9.43, 45, 47, Gehenna is the place of future punishment.
* In Mt. 10.28; Lk. 12.5, Gehenna is the place of ultimate destruction
* In Mt. 23.15, Gehenna represents those condemned by God.
* In James 3.6, it represents what is contrary to godliness.[/list]

I'm convinced that the evidence is against that Gehenna refers to the "day of judgment against the cities."

> It refers to all the things Jesus has just spoken of including the coming of the son of man and the destruction of the temple.

As I said, it is debated. I can see you have your opinion, but that doesn't make your perspective "the conclusion of the matter." Is it one or the other, or both? It's debated.

> Verse 27 is important as it links...

Again I can see you have an opinion, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean that "clearly the scene in Matthew 25 is envisioned."

> Gehenna has to do with Jesus' specific mission to first century Israel.

ALL of the evidence, as I've shown, goes against this conclusion. All of it.

> In Matthew 23.36, the specific text at hand, Jesus is speaking beyond the scope of his contemporaries, who obviously had no part in murdering Abel or Zechariah.

They didn't personally murder the prophets of old but they are responsible for those deaths since they continued their father's work by killing Jesus. The sins of the fathers on the heads of the children. Note that Jesus isn't saying that this generation did those things, only that they will pay for those things.

Your point with the other "this generation" verses is not clear to me at all and appears ridiculous on the face of it. "This generation" refers to the group of people Jesus is speaking to.
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> Therefore, the most straightforward reading of this passage identifies Gehenna with Gehenna, the final judgment of the unrepentant.

I presume you mean with the postmortem Hell, not with the eschatological day of judgement over the earth.
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> Matthew 12.41-42 doesn't speak of an eschatological day of judgment over the earth.

Nor is it specified as a judgement over the dead. It has to be the same "day of judgement" that we find in 11:20-24 against the cities.
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> Matthew 24.34 is also highly debated. Again (1) the fall of Jerusalem, and (2) the Second coming. And again, nothing is said about all the earth.

It refers to all the things Jesus has just spoken of including the coming of the son of man and the destruction of the temple.
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> Matthew 16.28 is an obscure and much-debated text. It doesn't necessarily mean eschatological judgment over the Earth.

Verse 27 is important as it links what happens to this generation to the coming of the the son of man in power to reward and punish—clearly the scene in Matthew 25 is envisioned.
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> Gehenna has to do with God's general and just judgment over all who reject His revelation.

Gehenna has to do with Jesus' specific mission to first century Israel.

We've talked before. Welcome back to the forum. Glad to have a conversation.

I disagree with your exegesis, hermeneutics, and conclusion. But other than that we're in agreement ;)

Let's isolate your points for conversation. "This generation" is a phrase often used by Matthew not only to refer to the present group of people but broadly as a euphemism for the ungodly.

[list]- In Matthew 11.11, 13-14, Jesus is speaking of the whole scope of history, not just the present generation, even though that is obviously his immediate context. "This generation" includes the historic scope of all who reject the truth of God's revelation.
- Matthew 12.38-45; 16.4. Verse 39 is a reference to "any generation." There has been enough testimony from history so that no one will be without excuse. Though the immediate context is his contemporary generation who is rejecting him, the witness of history will condemn any rejecting generation.
- Matthew 17.17 refers to Jesus's contemporaries.
- In Matthew 23.36, the specific text at hand, Jesus is speaking beyond the scope of his contemporaries, who obviously had no part in murdering Abel or Zechariah.[/list]

In verse 32, Jesus is obviously speaking well beyond the immediate generation, coursing over all of Jewish covenant history.

In verse 34, Jesus is obviously speaking well beyond the immediate generation, since this particular group of Pharisees or this generation of Jews didn't flog and crucify the prophets and wise men. They did persecute Christians in the coming era. He is covering Jewish rejection of God's prophets through history and reaching into future years to come regarding Jewish persecution of Christians, particularly in Asia Minor against Paul.

Therefore, the most straightforward reading of this passage identifies Gehenna with Gehenna, the final judgment of the unrepentant. Their Jewish heritage and religious leadership will not spare them against their rejection of God's revelation and their rebellion against God.

> There is no good reason to distinguish between "the judgement of Gehenna" and the blood vengeance that will come upon "this generation." They are interchangeable.

In a sense this is correct, though not as you intend it. All who rebel against God ("this generation") will be be subject to judgment for their lack of repentance. The judgment of Gehenna will always come upon the ungodly.

> What is suffered by "this generation" is always an eschatological day of judgement over the earth (cf. Matthew 12:41-42, 16:28, 24:34).

[list]- Matthew 12.41-42 doesn't speak of an eschatological day of judgment [b]over the earth[/b].
- Matthew 16.28 is an obscure and much-debated text. It doesn't necessarily mean eschatological judgment over the Earth. The choices are (1) the cross, (2) the resurrection, (3) the ascension, (4) Pentecost, (5) the growth of the Church, (6) the fall of Jerusalem, or (7) the eschatological day of judgment. Nothing is said about [b]over the earth[/b].
- Matthew 24.34 is also highly debated. Again (1) the fall of Jerusalem, and (2) the Second coming. And again, nothing is said about [b]all the earth[/b].[/list]

> The desolation of Jerusalem's house is an obvious reference to the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. The "sacrilege of desolation" set up in the Temple will signal the impending desolation of Jerusalem.

Probably, yes.

> Jesus has here given another explanation as to what the judgement of Gehenna is. It is both blood vengeance for killing the prophets (23:35) and the desolation of Jerusalem for repeatedly spurning Jesus (23:38, cf. Matthew 22:7).

Gehenna is the judgment of God against the ungodly. The former generations were guilty of killing the prophets; the current generation will be guilty of crucifying Jesus; future generations will be guilty of persecuting the Church. Gehenna has to do with God's general and just judgment over all who reject His revelation. There is no specific evidence to tie it only to blood vengeance and the desolation of Jerusalem (in AD 66 Zealots slaughtered the priests in the Temple; Josephus tells us that subsequently the Romans burned the temple and offered sacrifices to their ensigns by the eastern gate when they proclaimed Titus as Emperor. They erected standards with the insignia of the Roman emperor, who was worshiped as divine in the Eastern Mediterranean; they would have thus sealed the site’s desecration.).

Jesus called the coming destruction of Jerusalem 'Gehenna'

Jesus speaks against the Pharisees and scribes of his day in Matthew 23.

[quote]31 Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors. 33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape the judgement of Gehenna? 34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.[/quote]

The most straightforward reading of this passage identifies Gehenna with the punishment "this generation" will soon receive for shedding the blood of the righteous. There is no good reason to distinguish between "the judgement of Gehenna" and the blood vengeance that will come upon "this generation." They are interchangeable.

What is suffered by "this generation" is always an eschatological day of judgement over the earth (cf. Matthew 12:41-42, 16:28, 24:34). "This generation" is never said to suffer a postmortem punishment. The point Jesus is making in the "this generation" passages is that the kingdom and judgement are rapidly entering into history.

Jesus continues:

[quote]37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you, desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord.’”[/quote]

The desolation of Jerusalem's house is an obvious reference to the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. The "sacrilege of desolation" set up in the Temple will signal the impending desolation of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:1-2; 15-18, Luke 21:20-28).

Jesus has here given another explanation as to what the judgement of Gehenna is. It is both blood vengeance for killing the prophets (23:35) and the desolation of Jerusalem for repeatedly spurning Jesus (23:38, cf. Matthew 22:7).
Gehenna therefore refers to the coming destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies.

How could this be?

1. The word Gehenna is appropriated from the oracles of Jeremiah which claimed that the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem (Hebrew: Ge Hinnom, Aramaic: Gēhannā) would become the valley of Slaughter when Babylonian armies destroyed the city in 586 BC (Jeremiah 7:30-34, 19:4-6). The image of Gehenna therefore originates in reference to a military catastrophe that befell Jerusalem and its Temple. It would have been a suitable metaphor to describe what occurred in AD 70.

2. Jesus appeals to Isaiah 66:24 in his most detailed description of Gehenna: it is "where their worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched." This language naturally depicts the status of bodies disposed of after a successful siege. Such corpses are piled up without burial. They are eaten by worms and burned. This interpretation is confirmed by the context provided by Isaiah 66:24 which says that the inhabitants of a restored Jerusalem will go out to see the bodies of those who rebelled against YHWH and were subsequently slaughtered (Isaiah 66:16). What Isaiah 66 describes then relates to the land of the living, not to the afterlife. Living human beings cannot go out and see those who are now in a postmortem Hell. Thus this text too indicates that Gehenna is a place of earthly slaughter and inadequate burial.