by jimwalton » Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:34 pm
OK, let's examine your premises. First you say our moral code is different from God's. What the Bible says is
1. God gave you a conscience so you know there is a right and wrong and you know what is right and what is wrong. Rom. 2.15; 2 Cor. 1.12; Rom. 1.19.
2. Humans have a choice whether to listen to their consciences or not. Acts 24.16.
3. Humans are able to change or block what their consciences tell them. 1 Cor. 8.7; Rom. 1.18, 21; 1 Tim. 1.19; 3.9
Therefore, according to the Bible and Christianity, everybody has a sense of right and wrong, but we have to decide to follow it or not. And we can actually corrupt our consciences so badly that they don't conform to the moral code based on God's character. Isaiah 5.20 says, "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Second you say that I only know God exists because I trust my feelings. Not so. First of all, I have examined the logical arguments for the existence of God, and they make a whole lot more sense than the arguments against His existence. Secondly, I have learned to trust what the Bible says because of its historical accuracy and experiential evidences. Third, I have experienced God in my own life to such a great extent that denying him would be absurd. Fourth, I've had answers to prayer that I have no other explanation for. But, just so you know, God never came and talked to me. It doesn't work like that. He "talks" to us through the Bible.
Third, your analogical story is very interesting, but I don't think it's an accurate representation of Christianity. I'd prefer to stay away from it and talk in real terms, not analogical ones.
Why do I believe the Bible?
Any lawyer will tell you there are different kinds of evidence: material evidence, circumstantial evidence, testimonial evidence, anecdotal, statistical, reasoning, documentary, historic, scientific, etc. Different kinds of evidence are valid in different situations. For instance, a lawyer may use scientists, eye-witnesses, circumstantial evidence, and testimonial evidence to bring his case to a jury, who must weigh the various evidences to arrive at a verdict. If science were the only evidence, court cases would be decided by scientists, not juries. But a whole lot more is involved. Evaluating the Bible is more like a court case than a science experiment. We have to use the proper measures in appropriate places. Miracles can't be proven by science because they're not repeatable on demand, or even able to be studied by reproducibility in controlled environments (the only appropriate arena for scientific inquiry). Here are some of the reasons I believe in the Bible:
1. Corroboration with history (history is always a matter of interpretation of records)
2. Corroboration with archaeological finds (becoming more scientific all the time, but still subject to a vast amount of interpretation)
3. Corroboration with known cultural (in history) markers
4. Corroboration with known geographical information
5. Reliable anecdotal evidence from trustworthy sources
6. Reason: The Bible gives a well-reasoned and consistent perspective and interpretation of life as we know it. The picture it presents makes sense.
7. Testimonial evidence (of people currently alive), consistent from person to person, of life change founded in a religious experience as described in the Bible. People's lives are still being radically changed by what they say is the truth of the Bible and the Holy Spirit inside of them.
8. Current realities (like the existence of the state of Israel and the existence of the Church) that don't make as much sense outside of the environments and interpretations described by the Bible.
9. The eyewitness accounts of the Bible ring true.
10. There is no hint of any kind of conspiracy, fraud, or collusion.
11. The writers of the Bible exude nobility, morality, and honor. To accuse them of deliberate deception is unreasonable. There is no hint that these men were insane. While they certainly lived in a non-literate culture, they didn't live in an illiterate one. These people were obviously not buffoons, barbarians, or blockheads, but were demonstrably fairly cogent and logical.
12. The consistency of theme, theology, and focus from over 40 authors from 3 continents over a span of 1600 years is unearthly.
13. Prophecy and fulfillment
14. The events they wrote about were public occurrences, not private experiences. Detecting fraud or error would have been easy.
15. Their writings have been pored over for millennia and have been accepted by great numbers of scholars.
16. The Bible has an unearthly kind of power to change lives for the people who submit to its teachings.
Well, that's 16 off the top of my head, at least enough to stimulate dialogue.
OK, let's examine your premises. First you say our moral code is different from God's. What the Bible says is
1. God gave you a conscience so you know there is a right and wrong and you know what is right and what is wrong. Rom. 2.15; 2 Cor. 1.12; Rom. 1.19.
2. Humans have a choice whether to listen to their consciences or not. Acts 24.16.
3. Humans are able to change or block what their consciences tell them. 1 Cor. 8.7; Rom. 1.18, 21; 1 Tim. 1.19; 3.9
Therefore, according to the Bible and Christianity, everybody has a sense of right and wrong, but we have to decide to follow it or not. And we can actually corrupt our consciences so badly that they don't conform to the moral code based on God's character. Isaiah 5.20 says, "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Second you say that I only know God exists because I trust my feelings. Not so. First of all, I have examined the logical arguments for the existence of God, and they make a whole lot more sense than the arguments against His existence. Secondly, I have learned to trust what the Bible says because of its historical accuracy and experiential evidences. Third, I have experienced God in my own life to such a great extent that denying him would be absurd. Fourth, I've had answers to prayer that I have no other explanation for. But, just so you know, God never came and talked to me. It doesn't work like that. He "talks" to us through the Bible.
Third, your analogical story is very interesting, but I don't think it's an accurate representation of Christianity. I'd prefer to stay away from it and talk in real terms, not analogical ones.
Why do I believe the Bible?
Any lawyer will tell you there are different kinds of evidence: material evidence, circumstantial evidence, testimonial evidence, anecdotal, statistical, reasoning, documentary, historic, scientific, etc. Different kinds of evidence are valid in different situations. For instance, a lawyer may use scientists, eye-witnesses, circumstantial evidence, and testimonial evidence to bring his case to a jury, who must weigh the various evidences to arrive at a verdict. If science were the only evidence, court cases would be decided by scientists, not juries. But a whole lot more is involved. Evaluating the Bible is more like a court case than a science experiment. We have to use the proper measures in appropriate places. Miracles can't be proven by science because they're not repeatable on demand, or even able to be studied by reproducibility in controlled environments (the only appropriate arena for scientific inquiry). Here are some of the reasons I believe in the Bible:
1. Corroboration with history (history is always a matter of interpretation of records)
2. Corroboration with archaeological finds (becoming more scientific all the time, but still subject to a vast amount of interpretation)
3. Corroboration with known cultural (in history) markers
4. Corroboration with known geographical information
5. Reliable anecdotal evidence from trustworthy sources
6. Reason: The Bible gives a well-reasoned and consistent perspective and interpretation of life as we know it. The picture it presents makes sense.
7. Testimonial evidence (of people currently alive), consistent from person to person, of life change founded in a religious experience as described in the Bible. People's lives are still being radically changed by what they say is the truth of the Bible and the Holy Spirit inside of them.
8. Current realities (like the existence of the state of Israel and the existence of the Church) that don't make as much sense outside of the environments and interpretations described by the Bible.
9. The eyewitness accounts of the Bible ring true.
10. There is no hint of any kind of conspiracy, fraud, or collusion.
11. The writers of the Bible exude nobility, morality, and honor. To accuse them of deliberate deception is unreasonable. There is no hint that these men were insane. While they certainly lived in a non-literate culture, they didn't live in an illiterate one. These people were obviously not buffoons, barbarians, or blockheads, but were demonstrably fairly cogent and logical.
12. The consistency of theme, theology, and focus from over 40 authors from 3 continents over a span of 1600 years is unearthly.
13. Prophecy and fulfillment
14. The events they wrote about were public occurrences, not private experiences. Detecting fraud or error would have been easy.
15. Their writings have been pored over for millennia and have been accepted by great numbers of scholars.
16. The Bible has an unearthly kind of power to change lives for the people who submit to its teachings.
Well, that's 16 off the top of my head, at least enough to stimulate dialogue.