by Fodder » Wed Jan 10, 2024 3:50 pm
> I don't see any realistic way to arrive at "proof" that Moses, Gideon, or anyone else had a credible revelation experience except by accepting the text on other criteria, since their original evidence is unavailable to us except by report. I think this is what you are also saying.
Yes, that is what I’m saying, but it’s more than that. You’re acknowledging that not only is there no “proof” that these are revelation, but that there isn’t even anything better than “these authors are genuinely reliable, and they had their reasons for belief, so you ought to believe too”.
> So when we read the biblical text, we ask all the other necessary questions: Is the writer reliable? Does he tell the truth about history? Does what he says comport with reality about other things? Is there integrity and benefit in what he is saying? ... If I can observe that the author is a person of morality, integrity, honesty, and accuracy, I then have reason to invest trust in the author about claims I can't verify.
We could have all these factors you mention AND the claimant can still be wrong that they are receiving revelation. I’m looking for targeted criteria that can solve this issue.
> And since there is consistency across the Bible that God gave evidences of His revelation to people across the generations to confirm the messages, and people across the generations were convinced by that evidence, then to be a naysayer is just being ornery.
No, I don’t think so. If you are saying God has done this for every generation, as the Bible presents, my question still stands, why does he not continue to do this? I’m trying to remain humble before God, and not be unduly demanding—but really, what gives? Why does he work with people all throughout redemption history according to their own plausibility structures, but not us?
You mentioned in your last comment about how people were rebellious against his messages in the past too, and I agree with you. But here’s the thing, for a response to be rebellious that would mean that they truly understood it to be from God in their own conception and rejected it. I don’t think that is what I’m doing. I’m saying I don’t see sufficient evidence to affirm that this is revelation. In the same way, as I see it, in order for me to be engaged in rebellion, God would have to have revealed himself to me in a way that works with my plausibility structure (as he did with people in the past) such that I actually do believe it, but am choosing not to follow it.
> If intelligent, skeptical people were convinced, and we have a reliable record in our hands, on what basis or evidence do I discredit all of it?
You said yourself, you believe it is revelation for other reasons than the claims contained in it itself. Perhaps it has always been like that. Perhaps people have always come to believe it for not the best of reasons, but as a consequence of other beliefs and commitments. To me, it just really strains credulity to think that for every book of the Bible, every prophet, and every claim they made there was always a group examining them with good evidentiary standards, with the utmost integrity, with no ulterior motives or wishful thinking—such that we can be confident of absolutely everything it says.
> Then the question turns to you: On what evidence do you base your skepticism
On the evidence of human nature, that it seems ubiquitous in all human cultures and societies that we make claims of divine revelation in one form or another.
Even when I was a Christian, I believed that the overwhelming majority of these claims by humans are mistaken or in bad faith. Yet those who hold these alternative claims of divine revelation also have their own reasons for believing them. When I began to examine these reasons more closely, I found that they were not of substantial difference from my own reasons for believing the Bible. (Like the factors we have been discussing)
I realized I had a big problem on my hands, because if I reject these other claims of revelation and accept my own tradition’s—yet the reasoning is basically the same, then I am not being consistent, and am in fact engaging in special pleading. In other words, if I accept the apostle Paul, but not Joseph Smith on ultimately arbitrary grounds, then I am not acting with integrity. Consequently, if I call bullshit on JS, I must do it with Paul too.
That is of course not to say I throw out Paul! He was one of the most influential people on western civilization that has ever lived—but that doesn’t mean his message was revelation from God.
I do not say there is no God. I do not say I know for certain He doesn’t reveal himself to people. I do not even reject miracles outright. I just look at myself and my fellow humans and realize that we have a fundamental flaw in our ability to be taken in by magical and wishful thinking.
Look at all the things people believe in our own age—Q-anon, chem trails, healing crystals, astrology, faith healers, all the cults. And this at a time when good information is available to all people easily. I live just a few miles away from the Scientology world headquarters. I’ve studied it. The guy literally said “I’m going to invent a religion” and people still believe it! Thousands of them.
I just think it’s far more likely that the Bible takes part in this ubiquitous human phenomenon than that it is the one and only truth from God.
> or do you just need evidence there is no chance of ever getting?
I really do take this to heart, and I appreciate you saying it. You might be right. Yet my commitment to skepticism also causes me to be skeptical of myself— thus the search continues. I engage in conversations like this because I really believe it matters. If I didn’t care about the Bible, I wouldn’t bother with all of this.
> I don't see any realistic way to arrive at "proof" that Moses, Gideon, or anyone else had a credible revelation experience except by accepting the text on other criteria, since their original evidence is unavailable to us except by report. I think this is what you are also saying.
Yes, that is what I’m saying, but it’s more than that. You’re acknowledging that not only is there no “proof” that these are revelation, but that there isn’t even anything better than “these authors are genuinely reliable, and they had their reasons for belief, so you ought to believe too”.
> So when we read the biblical text, we ask all the other necessary questions: Is the writer reliable? Does he tell the truth about history? Does what he says comport with reality about other things? Is there integrity and benefit in what he is saying? ... If I can observe that the author is a person of morality, integrity, honesty, and accuracy, I then have reason to invest trust in the author about claims I can't verify.
We could have all these factors you mention AND the claimant can still be wrong that they are receiving revelation. I’m looking for targeted criteria that can solve this issue.
> And since there is consistency across the Bible that God gave evidences of His revelation to people across the generations to confirm the messages, and people across the generations were convinced by that evidence, then to be a naysayer is just being ornery.
No, I don’t think so. If you are saying God has done this for every generation, as the Bible presents, my question still stands, why does he not continue to do this? I’m trying to remain humble before God, and not be unduly demanding—but really, what gives? Why does he work with people all throughout redemption history according to their own plausibility structures, but not us?
You mentioned in your last comment about how people were rebellious against his messages in the past too, and I agree with you. But here’s the thing, for a response to be [i]rebellious[/i] that would mean that they truly understood it to be from God in their own conception and rejected it. I don’t think that is what I’m doing. I’m saying I don’t see sufficient evidence to affirm that this is revelation. In the same way, as I see it, in order for me to be engaged in rebellion, God would have to have revealed himself to me in a way that works with my plausibility structure (as he did with people in the past) such that I actually do believe it, but am choosing not to follow it.
> If intelligent, skeptical people were convinced, and we have a reliable record in our hands, on what basis or evidence do I discredit all of it?
You said yourself, you believe it is revelation for other reasons than the claims contained in it itself. Perhaps it has always been like that. Perhaps people have always come to believe it for not the best of reasons, but as a consequence of other beliefs and commitments. To me, it just really strains credulity to think that for every book of the Bible, every prophet, and every claim they made there was always a group examining them with good evidentiary standards, with the utmost integrity, with no ulterior motives or wishful thinking—such that we can be confident of absolutely everything it says.
> Then the question turns to you: On what evidence do you base your skepticism
On the evidence of human nature, that it seems ubiquitous in all human cultures and societies that we make claims of divine revelation in one form or another.
Even when I was a Christian, I believed that the overwhelming majority of these claims by humans are mistaken or in bad faith. Yet those who hold these alternative claims of divine revelation also have their own reasons for believing them. When I began to examine these reasons more closely, I found that they were not of substantial difference from my own reasons for believing the Bible. (Like the factors we have been discussing)
I realized I had a big problem on my hands, because if I reject these other claims of revelation and accept my own tradition’s—yet the reasoning is basically the same, then I am not being consistent, and am in fact engaging in special pleading. In other words, if I accept the apostle Paul, but not Joseph Smith on ultimately arbitrary grounds, then I am not acting with integrity. Consequently, if I call bullshit on JS, I must do it with Paul too.
That is of course not to say I throw out Paul! He was one of the most influential people on western civilization that has ever lived—but that doesn’t mean his message was revelation from God.
I do not say there is no God. I do not say I know for certain He doesn’t reveal himself to people. I do not even reject miracles outright. I just look at myself and my fellow humans and realize that we have a fundamental flaw in our ability to be taken in by magical and wishful thinking.
Look at all the things people believe in our own age—Q-anon, chem trails, healing crystals, astrology, faith healers, all the cults. And this at a time when good information is available to all people easily. I live just a few miles away from the Scientology world headquarters. I’ve studied it. The guy literally said “I’m going to invent a religion” and people still believe it! Thousands of them.
I just think it’s far more likely that the Bible takes part in this ubiquitous human phenomenon than that it is the one and only truth from God.
> or do you just need evidence there is no chance of ever getting?
I really do take this to heart, and I appreciate you saying it. You might be right. Yet my commitment to skepticism also causes me to be skeptical of myself— thus the search continues. I engage in conversations like this because I really believe it matters. If I didn’t care about the Bible, I wouldn’t bother with all of this.