You are confusing causality with possibility. Because someone chooses it (even if I'll know they'll choose it) does not require that I made them do it or that was my plan. Them converting was always a very real possibility, but they didn't choose it.

> This brings us back to the hundreds of ways God could have accomplished the killing of the Canaanites, including doing it Himself or pitting all the enemies of Israel against each other.

I find it hard to believe that you would any more comfort in God wiping them out Sodom and Gomorrah style, or in God forcing them to kill each other. What is more merciful and just is to allow them legitimate opportunity to surrender and change their ways. That gives them one final chance to choose the right and experience mercy. It's both more kind and more just than a fireball from heaven.

> Leaving Israel out of the killing would be consistent with an effort to civilize them as a society.

I think you're guilty of anachronism. You're defining "civilized" the way we do in 2014, not in the mindset and worldview of ancient cultures.

So if the end result was always going to be the killing of the Canaanites, then that must have been God's plan. All this talk about giving them the opportunity to convert, etc. is irrelevant since it was never an actual possibility.

This brings us back to the hundreds of ways God could have accomplished the killing of the Canaanites, including doing it Himself or pitting all the enemies of Israel against each other.

Leaving Israel out of the killing would be consistent with an effort to civilize them as a society.

> I never used the word "ignorant."

True. You said, "I agree that there are many examples in the Bible indicating God does not know the future." I was taking "does not know the future" as "ignorant of the future." Not derogatorily in terms of "stupid," but synonymously as in terms of "doesn't know."

> So, do you believe that God knew that the Israelites would ultimately slaughter the Canaanites when He was developing his plan?

I'd have to go with that. Yeah, he would have to have known that's the way it was going to play out, but at that point the "slaughter" as you put it (which I don't think was the case, by the way) was "just war" administered to miscreants and rebels as retribution for crimes committed and to restore justice to the land, no different than when the Allied forces invaded Germany in early 1945 (or late '44).

I never used the word ignorant. I said that there are many examples in the Bible indicating God does not know the future. If that is the case, it is by God's design. If God wanted a system in which he already knew everything that would happen from the beginning, He could surely have made it that way.

What you described above doesn't really conflict with this premise. I agree there is huge difference between already knowing the future and having the power to shape the future any way He wishes.

So, do you believe that God knew that the Israelites would ultimately slaughter the Canaanites when He was developing his plan?

Interesting perspective, interpreting God's willingness to consider human changes as ignorance on his part. Suppose your boss says to you, "You've been late to work 5 times. Once more and you're fired." Now it's up to you. If you show up on time, you can build back up your cushion of trust. If you blow him off, you're out.

God says, "I will love those who come to me for a relationship, and if you rebel against me, you will be met with the harsh judgment you deserve." So, someone who has been rebelling decides to change their ways, and God says, "OK, then, as promised, I won't judge you." And you claim that's evidence of God's ignorance. After all the conversations we've had, that to me is astounding.

It seems that you misunderstand the nature of prophecy. First of all, the predictive element in biblical prophecy has to be kept distinct from causation, or else it ceases to be predictive. Prophets weren't predicting anything, but merely giving the word of the Lord. The prophecy is God's message, not the prophet's. If predicting is understood to preclude causation, then God cannot predict, for he is the first cause and the final cause. Rather than regarding prophecy as prediction, it is more helpful to consider it as "God's syllabus." The syllabus for a course doesn't "predict" what will happen in each class period of the term, but presents the instructor's plans and intentions for each period. The significance of the document is that the instructor is in a position to carry it out. Likewise, when a judge passes a sentence on a convicted criminal, he is not "predicting" what will happen to that person. Rather, he is decreeing what ought to be done and is in a position to see that it is done. In prophetic literature, God is declaring his intentions and decreeing his judgments. To accuse God of ignorance is to miss the point entirely.

> These are three of MANY such examples. God's specific policy is to ebb and flow with human decision.

I agree that there are many examples in the Bible indicating God does not know the future.

Now this I have to disagree with this strongly on biblical terms.

Deut. 29.11-20: If you walk in God's ways, then you will... But if you turn your heart away...then I will.

Jeremiah 18.5-12: A strong statement refuting what you are claiming.

Jonah 3: the city repented, and God changed his plan.

These are three of MANY such examples. God's specific policy is to ebb and flow with human decision.

> Plan #1: That the Canaanites turn to the real God, be converted, and join Israel as God-fearing people. Plan #2: If they won't surrender and turn, drive them out of the land. Plan #3: If they won't convert and won't leave, but make war against you, make war back. That was the PLAN. The reality is that almost all of the Canaanite city-states jumped right to option 3. It was only the plan in the sense that it was the last alternative, but it is certainly not the only thing that could have possibly occurred.

A plan made by an omniscient God cannot include an "if". If they do (A) or if they do (B) or if they do (C) does not exist to someone who knows the future.

An omniscient diety's plan would be I will say this and they will do this and then I will do this. There is no reaction to their response, there is only a plan.

> If a particular effort is God's plan, and God knows the future, and the plan fails, then it had to be God's plan for the effort to fail all along. How is an omniscient God's plan thwarted by man?

Let me try to explain it using this example. Ephesians 1.4 says, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world..." This teaches that God knew that Adam and Eve were going to fail, despite what he would have wanted alternatively, and understanding that they had complete free will in making their choice, God knew they would make the wrong choice, fail, and fall. In preparation for that choice, since he could not conscientiously interfere with their free will, had a plan in place before creation ever happened, to redeem their failure.

The difference is between planning a failure, and knowing it's going to happen. In the Lord of the Rings, King Denethor sent his son, Faramir, down to the port to battle the incoming orcs. We all, even the king, knew the plan was going to fail, but that doesn't mean anyone planned for the effort to fail all along. There is a substantial difference between the knowledge of what may be obvious and having determined the outcome.

God's plan, as you can see in Eph. 1.4, was not thwarted by man's failure. He knew of the failure and made a plan to redeem it, even before creation was begun.

> Where does free will fit into this?

I'm not sure what you mean, but I'll try. The Canaanites had free will to turn to the living God. Rahab did (Josh. 2.8-14; 6.22-25). The Gibeonites did (Josh. 9). Anyone could have; it was their choice. And as I mentioned, the goal was to drive them out, not to necessarily kill them (Dt. 7.1-6). Free will fits into the whole picture, but maybe I'm not understanding the direction of your question.

> If God knew the future, then the plan was to kill the Canaanites. What actually occurred is the only thing that could have possibly occurred. God wasn't caught by surprise when the Canaanites refused to surrender.

Again, Plan #1: That the Canaanites turn to the real God, be converted, and join Israel as God-fearing people. Plan #2: If they won't surrender and turn, drive them out of the land. Plan #3: If they won't convert and won't leave, but make war against you, make war back. That was the PLAN. The reality is that almost all of the Canaanite city-states jumped right to option 3. It was only the plan in the sense that it was the last alternative, but it is certainly not the only thing that could have possibly occurred. Jonah 3 is instructive in this way, and so also Jer. 18.1-10.

> The effort did fail. The people didn't obey him. Judges 1.28-36. The book of Judges is about the corrupting presence of those people.

If a particular effort is God's plan, and God knows the future, and the plan fails, then it had to be God's plan for the effort to fail all along. How is an omniscient God's plan twarted by man?

> " Why is God no longer interested in wiping out false religion by force?" It was just related to taking the land, but the principles are good to this day (not the killing part): False religions are a corrupting influence on the truth. Don't align yourself with things that aren't true. You'll notice in the Bible that after the conquest, Israel was never again commanded by the Lord to fight an offensive battle. Ever.

Where does free will fit into this?

> Did God know people would die? Sure. But death is always the judgment for sin. None of us will live much beyond 90 years. Even natural death is the judgment for sin. But no one had to die. The Canaanites chose to fight.

If God knew the future, then the plan was to kill the Canaanites. What actually occurred is the only thing that could have possibly occurred. God wasn't caught by surprise when the Canaanites refused to surrender. Which brings us back to God ordering "good" men to kill "bad" men when God had so many other options.