> I was under the impression that Jesus was referring to the Holy Spirit due to the festival during which He said it, where the Jews anticipated the outpouring of the Holy Spirit by pouring out water in the Temple.

Without a reference from you, I'll presume you're talking about John 7.37-38. This was the Feast of the Tabernacles, which had to primary acts: The pouring of water in the Temple, and the lighting up of the Temple. The significance (for the Jews) of the pouring of the water was twofold: (1) it was symbolic of ritual prayer for abundant rain; (2) Yes, it was an anticipation of the Messiah and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on all nations.

By his prophetic preaching at the pouring out of the water, Jesus was saying, "I am the answer to your prayers. I am the Messiah, and I will give the Holy Spirit."

> Ezekiel 47.1-12

The image of the river running from the Temple looks back to the Garden of Eden and forward to the vision of Heaven in Rev. 22.1-2. It also brings to mind the advent of Jesus (Jn. 4.10-14). It's a picture of messianic salvation and the idyllic vision of Heaven. I'm not aware of any particular reference to the HS, and I don't think that's in the text.

> I was also under the impression that whilst water is indicative of chaos, it was usually referenced as the sea or the 'deep', rather than water in general, but again, I may be wrong.

Correct. Water doesn't always represent chaos, though that is very common (Gn. 1.2; Gn. 7; Ex. 13-15; when Mark references "the sea" in the ministry of Jesus; Rev. 21.1, etc.). There are plenty of references, however, when water is spiritual (Jn. 4, for instance).

Thanks again.

I was under the impression that Jesus was referring to the Holy Spirit due to the festival during which He said it, where the Jews anticipated the outpouring of the Holy Spirit by pouring out water in the Temple. However, I may be misinformed.

Regarding Ezekiel, I'm referring to chapter 47 (the vision of the river running from the Temple, interpreted as the outpouring of the Holy Spirit).
I was also under the impression that whilst water is indicative of chaos, it was usually referenced as the sea or the 'deep', rather than water in general, but again, I may be wrong.

It isn't something I've studied extensively, so I don't have intertextuality on my side, it's just something that came to mind earlier today, and I wondered what others thought.

> People often talk about God's Spirit being akin to fire (include parts of the Bible such as John the Baptist's testimony about Jesus, and the Day of Pentecost etc.), But I've always personally drawn on Ezekiel's view and Jesus' testimony ("if anyone is thirsty come to me and drink") where the Spirit is portrayed as water.

The Spirit is associated with fire in Acts 2.3, which is reminiscent of God's presence as fire at the burning bush (Ex. 3.2) and on Mt. Sinai (Dt. 5.4, et al.). As far as I know, though, that is the last association of the Spirit with fire. (In Luke 3.16, the fire is the not the Spirit but the baptism of judgment Jesus brings.) In the NT, other than Pentecost, the Spirit is not associated with fire.

Nor is the Spirit associated with water. In Jesus's testimony, Jesus Himself, not the Spirit, is the water they are to drink. I'm not aware that the NT connects the Spirit with water, but I'll be glad to discuss with you if you know of some texts.

> This of course takes me back to the Sinai imagery, and I noticed that since the idea of a 'cloud' can fit with both the fire and water imagery

The cloud fits with the fire imagery, as God manifests Himself as fire and cloud, but how does the cloud fit with water imagery in the OT? Again, let's discuss some texts.

In the OT, water is generally an image of chaos (Gn. 1.2; ch. 7; Ex. 14, etc.). I don't see what you're talking about in Ezekiel. Even in Ezekiel 1.24, "the roar of rushing waters" is a simile for the sound of the wings of the creatures, not a reference to the Holy Spirit. You'll need to explain what you're talking about.

Thanks for your contribution. Glad that you've used a scholar, that helps!

I get the cloud as Presence thing. And of course the NT mainly anticipates or reflects on the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost. I'm just conceptualising the imagery in my head a bit.

People often talk about God's Spirit being akin to fire (include parts of the Bible such as John the Baptist's testimony about Jesus, and the Day of Pentecost etc.), But I've always personally drawn on Ezekiel's view and Jesus' testimony ("if anyone is thirsty come to me and drink") where the Spirit is portrayed as water.

This of course takes me back to the Sinai imagery, and I noticed that since the idea of a 'cloud' can fit with both the fire and water imagery, I was wondering which interpretation (if not both) would be best in order to build a more thorough view of the two concepts in order to link them.

I know I'm kinda repeating myself, but I don't have much more to add....

What are your thoughts?

Joseph Greene says,

"In the OT and Second Temple literature YHWH’s presence was often depicted as a cloud. This depiction originated at Sinai and became paradigmatic for theophanies throughout Scripture. The cloud was one way to depict God’s presence.

"The NT rarely depicts the divine presence as a cloud (Mt. 17.5 & paral.). Other than the transfiguration, and possibly Jesus’ ascension to a 'cloud' (Acts 1.9), and a reference to Israel being 'under the cloud' during the exodus (1 Cor. 10.1-2), the NT does not usually depict God's presence as a cloud. Instead, God's presence is mostly depicted by 'Spirit' in the NT."

This just starts the conversation. Let's talk more.

Slightly odd question about the cloud in Exodus and Numbers.

This is my first post here so sorry if it's out of place.

I just have a quick question about the best interpretation for the cloud in Exodus and Numbers.

The cloud which: appears atop Sinai, guides the Israelites by day (and a pillar of fire by night), and dwells within/above the Tabernacle.
Due to its association with fire throughout, it may be interpreted as a cloud of smoke. But that vocabulary isn't used. There are references to smoke, but never in direct relation to the aforementioned cloud imagery.

The Hebrew word ('anan) just means 'cloud' (used for rainclouds, and cloud of incense in Leviticus).

The reason I ask is this: elsewhere God's Spirit is represented with water (mainly Ezekiel, and I think in some minor prophets; also Jesus). If God's spiritual presence is represented as a cloud, as in the above examples, with the metaphor of a raincloud/cloud of water, rather than of smoke, then we can build a more complete imagery by tying the two together.

With that said, God's Spirit is also represented as fire (Acts 2), so the smoke imagery would likewise work...

What are your thoughts (other than "who cares?")?

Any contributions are appreciated.