At this point I don't know what else to say. I have shown you by evidences that your case is not as clear as you think it to be. I have shown you by evidences that the interpretation could be different than what you are insisting on. You, by the same token, have shown me the evidences of your position. Here's what's clear: I don't buy your case, and you don't buy mine. Further conversation, I'm pretty sure, isn't going to change this picture. It's been a good conversation, and I appreciate reading your thoughts on this matter, but I'm not sure further conversation will be productive.

> In Ex. 34.1, God says, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.” How is that not a reference to the commandments in Exodus 20?

It's not a reference to the commandments in Exodus 20, because it's a reference to the commandments in Exodus 31! It's not elusive at all if you follow the narrative:

* Yahweh inscribes the tablets and gives them to Moses in Exodus 31, verse 18 -- with no mention of their contents.
* Moses brings the aforementioned tablets down from the mountain and breaks them in Exodus 32, verse 19. Again, the contents of the tablets are not mentioned.
* Yahweh tells Moses to replace the stone tablets, and he'll inscribe them with the same verses that were on the previous set -- AGAIN, up to this point, the contents are not specified.
* Yahweh then proceeds to identify the contents of the previous tablets to Moses, specifying them for the first time in the narrative.

We don't know the contents of either set of tablets until the SECOND set is crafted. But we know they're both the same, because Yahweh tells us when he orders Moses to make a second pair.

As for the "ten words," I think it's merely a scholarly reference that has no relevance to the chronological order or structure of the narrative.

As for Moses' trips up and down the mountain, I can only relate what Exodus tells us up to that point.

* At the beginning of chapter 19, the Israelites reach Sinai.
* In verse 3, Moses goes up the mountain. After communicating between Yahweh and the Israelites, he comes back down in verse 14 (trip 1).
* In verse 20, after Yahweh comes back to the mountain in a cloud of smoke, Moses goes back up. After some discussion about who's allowed to talk to Yahweh, Moses goes back down in verse 25 (trip 2).
* NOW chapter 20 begins with Yahweh issuing the first commandments to Moses (I had mistakenly counted this as a third trip, but with another read, I realize Moses and the Israelites were on the ground when Yahweh did this).
* After Yahweh issues scores more commandments, Moses, Aaron and a number of elders go up the mountain and see Yahweh in chapter 24, verse 9. Incidentally, this is ANOTHER instance where Yahweh speaks of the commandments in the FUTURE tense (verse 12): "And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them."

It was only then that Moses went into Yahweh's cloud and spent forty days and nights -- at least ten days, multiple chapters and another trip up the mountain after Yahweh had issued the first commandments in chapter 20.

It was at the end of this forty day period (the only one), in chapter 31, verse 18 that Yahweh actually gave Moses the first set of tablets (whose contents, as I've already related, aren't revealed until chapter 34).

> No, actually, it doesn't. Neither verse 1 nor verse 28 make an explicit reference to the commandments in Exodus 20.

I must confess that your logic and treatment of the evidence eludes me. In Ex. 34.1, God says, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.” How is that not a reference to the commandments in Exodus 20? And 34.28 explicitly says, "And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments." He is distinctly equating the "Ten Words" written on the tablets (v. 29) with the words of the covenant just spoken (vv. 10-27).

> Yahweh doesn't say, the ark of the testimony which I've ALREADY given you. He doesn't say the "ten words" which I've ALREADY given you. He says, "which I SHALL give thee." Future tense. As in chapters 31 and 34.

This is a good question, so I spent quite a bit of time searching commentaries to see how the scholars deal with it. It turns out that everyone, without exception, regards the reference to the testimony (הָעֵדֻת) as the tablets with he commandments on it. Rashi, Childs, Cole, Walton, Davis, Keil & Delitzsch, and online commentaries. And not a single one of them finds an issue as you are with the future tense. I'm not sure why, unless it's not an issue. Every translation I can find translates that phrase as future ("...which I will give you."), but not a single commentator has a problem with that. I'm not sure why. I'll have to keep researching. Good question, though, but scholars don't find the problem with it that you do.

> And, again, you're mistaken about the forty days and nights.

I'm asking an honest question here: Are you claiming that the "Ten Words" were NOT given on Mt. Sinai? That Moses received them at the base of the mountain (Ex. 19.25), and then went UP the mountain for the Book of the Covenant (Ex. 20.21)? If you are, that disagrees with Ex. 32.15 & 19. I'm just curious to hear your thoughts. This is a good discussion.

> Exodus 34 makes explicit reference to the original stone tablets of the 10 words both in vv. 1 and 28 (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִים).

No, actually, it doesn't. Neither verse 1 nor verse 28 make an explicit reference to the commandments in Exodus 20. Again, you're making a presumption for which there is absolutely NO evidence. And verse 28 explicitly equates the commandments preceding it -- the "covenant" -- as "'the ten commandments" ("for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel").

> But Ex. 25.16-22 God says that the "ark of the testimony" (which God will give Moses) is to go into the ark of the covenant. This "ark of the testimony" is identified in 32.15 as the two tablets of the testimony, i.e., the Ten Words, which Moses proceeds to break (32.18-19). Then 34.1 refers to the same two tablets, and 34.28 identifies them explicitly as the Ten Words (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִים).

Again, you're making the same unfounded presumption. Furthermore, you're missing a key component of this part of the narrative here -- specifically, Exodus 25:16: "And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee."

Yahweh doesn't say, the ark of the testimony which I've ALREADY given you. He doesn't say the "ten words" which I've ALREADY given you. He says, "which I SHALL give thee." Future tense. As in chapters 31 and 34.

And, again, you're mistaken about the forty days and nights. That came AFTER Moses had relayed the first commandments to the Israelites in chapter 20, and AFTER he had returned back down from the mountain and gone back up again. So that presumed similarity between them and the future tablets simply doesn't exist.

There is simply no good reason to presume the commandments written on the tablets in chapters 31 and 34 are the same as the very first commandments issued verbally in chapter 20.

If we were to accept this premise, we'd be forced to conclude that, in chapter 34, Yahweh mentions a "covenant," proceeds to issue a number of commandments, AGAIN refers to the "covenant," then identifies the "covenant" as "the ten commandments," but for some reason is suddenly and inexplicably referring to a DIFFERENT set of commandments he issued more than a month earlier!

On the other hand, there IS good reason to believe those mentioned in chapter 31 ARE the same as those listed in chapter 34 (because, again, they are identified as such).

I appreciate your reasonableness in this discussion, but I'm afraid your interpretation is still mistaken.

I will agree that Exodus 34 is possibly the most difficult chapter in Exodus to interpret, and that assessments diverge broadly. As Brevard Childs writes, "The burning problem turns on the issue of the relation of the Decalogue in Ex. 20 with the laws of chapter 34. If chapter 34 was simply a rewriting of the original laws upon fresh tablets, one would expect to find an exact repetition, which does not seem to be the case. If chapter 34 does not contain the laws of Exodus 20, but other laws relating to worship that are not preserved in the Bok of the Covenant, then these laws were not those written on the first tablets that Moses broke. The great difficulty is that one thing is commanded, and another done."

Exodus 34 makes explicit reference to the original stone tablets of the 10 words both in vv. 1 and 28 (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִים). The first set, as we know, were destroyed by Moses in his disgust/rage (Ex. 32.19). The second set is inscribed in 34.28, but what is inscribed doesn't match Ex. 20 and Dt. 5. The words Moses is instructed to write are those expressed from Ex. 34.10-26, as specified in 34.27. We can immediately see vast differences, and yet a few similarities (17, 21). So we have to interpret what's going on.

Exodus 20 has what it calls "these words" (20.1). There are obviously 10 segments. Then Exodus proceeds to reveal the rest of the Book of the Covenant (chs. 20-23). In the book of the covenant we see some similarities to what we read in chapter 34 (such as Ex. 23.19). Moses wrote it down (24.4).

We have specific mention of the tablets in 31.18, as you have mentioned, and 32.15-16 as Moses is descending from Sinai. But Ex. 25.16-22 God says that the "ark of the testimony" (which God will give Moses) is to go into the ark of the covenant. This "ark of the testimony" is identified in 32.15 as the two tablets of the testimony, i.e., the Ten Words, which Moses proceeds to break (32.18-19). Then 34.1 refers to the same two tablets, and 34.28 identifies them explicitly as the Ten Words (עֲשֶׂרֶת הַדְּבָרִים).

So I think there are valid reasons to presume the contents of these two tablets are identical to "these words" of Exodus 20.

> (Incidentally, there was NO 40-day waiting period for the first ten commandments issued in Exodus 20.

You're right, and neither is there a 40-day waiting period connected with Ex. 34. In Ex. 24.18 we learn that Moses had been on Sinai for 40 days and nights, but that was not a waiting period. And in 34.28 we read something similar: Moses was there for 40 days and nights.

> To summarize, there is NOTHING in the Exodus 19-20 narrative that identifies the first commandments as "the ten commandments," and no reason to presume they are the same written on the tablets in Exodus 31.

Hopefully I have shown you reasonable rebuttal to this position.

Again, I'm afraid you're mistaken, and it appears your misinterpretation lay in two fundamental errors.

First, you make the (unfounded) assumption that the unspecified commandments referred to in chapter 34, verse 1 are the ten described in chapter 20. But there is NOTHING in these later chapters to suggest that. In fact, the FIRST set of tablets (later broken) are described only very vaguely in chapter 31, verse 18: "And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."

Up to this point, the contents of these tablets are NEVER identified. The verses immediately prior describe the priesthood and emphasize the Sabbath, and the verses immediately after describe the behavior of the Israelites, Yahweh's anger and Moses' destruction of the tablets. So there is absolutely NO valid reason to presume the contents of these two tablets are identical to the very first commandments issued in chapter 20.

Your second error is to essentially ignore chapter 34, verse 28, which specifically identifies the "covenant" (upon whose contents we both agree) as "the ten commandments." I'll quote it again: "And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

(Incidentally, there was NO 40-day waiting period for the first ten commandments issued in Exodus 20. The only wait identified in that narrative was a 3-day period during which the Israelites were to "sanctify" themselves, after which Moses descended from Mount Sinai (for the third time) to relay those first commandments VERBALLY.)

To summarize, there is NOTHING in the Exodus 19-20 narrative that identifies the first commandments as "the ten commandments," and no reason to presume they are the same written on the tablets in Exodus 31. Conversely, there is EVERY reason to conclude that the commandments issued in Exodus 34 -- the "covenant" -- ARE "the ten commandments," and they are explicitly identified as such in verse 28.

> Actually, no. It's all there in Exodus 34. It begins after Moses breaks the first set of tablets (in chapter 32). Yahweh tells Moses to hew a new set of tablets, and he'll write the same words that were on the first set (verse 1).

Actually, this is what I said: "In Ex. 34 the Lord gives Moses the Decalogue again (Ex. 34.28), which are not listed out for us again."

> Moses re-made the blank tablets and went back up Mount Sinai, waiting for Yahweh to repeat the process (verses 4-9).

I agree, but they're not listed for us again.

> With the phrases, "Behold, I make a covenant" (verse 10) and "Observe thou that which I command thee this day" (verse 11), Yahweh begins issuing the commandments, cited in the original post above (verses 12-26).

Correct. Though the "ten words" are not quoted here, verse 28 certainly assumes them. Though some ambiguity exists as to whether the terms of the covenant are only the "ten words" or more of the book of the covenant is included. The text isn't as clear as we would like it to be.

> The very next two verses seal the deal: 27-28:

That's correct. I mentioned that in my post: "In Ex. 34 the Lord gives Moses the Decalogue again (Ex. 34.28)." I'm not catching why you're saying, "Actually, no."

> These commandments are referred to, both immediately prior and immediately after, as the "covenant." And the "covenant" is explicitly identified as "the ten commandments" in verse 28. They're not "summarized." They're specifically referred to, verbalized, then referred to again, leaving no doubt.

Ah, here we go. The problem with your position is that you seem to be using a couple of obvious texts and missing the whole of what's being said. Let’s look it over once again. In Ex. 34, God commands Moses to chisel two stone tablets, upon which God will write what was on the first tablets (that’s the first clue that it’s going to be the same "ten words") as you and I agree. Moses goes up on the mountain, and the Lord reveals Himself (vv. 5-7), Moses bows and repents on behalf of the people, and the Lord renews the covenant with them (because it would be easy to believe that the incident of the golden calf in chapter 32 negated the covenant, but the Lord wants to assure them there is forgiveness and that the covenant continues). The Lord expresses covenant words—let’s try to count ‘em. You’ll readily see that it’s not meant to be the Ten Commandments.

"Then the Lord said..." (v. 10); here are the elements of the covenant being explicitly expressed:

1. I’ll do wonders (10)
2. Obey what I have commanded you (11)
3. I will drive out the people groups (11)
4. Don’t make a treaty with them (13, 15), since they were to make a covenant with God, not the surrounding peoples.
5. Break down their altars (13)
6. Don’t worship any other gods (14)
7. Don’t make cast metal idols (17)
8. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread (18)
9. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including children (19-20)
10. Remember and sanctify the Sabbath (21)
11. Celebrate the Feast of Weeks (22-24)
12. I will drive out the nations before you and enlarge your territory (24)
13. Don't offer the blood of the sacrifice along with anything containing yeast 25).
14. Bring the first fruit of crops to the Lord (26).
15. Don't cook a young goat in its mother's milk (26).

It's very clear that these words I just listed are the covenant (v. 27). And then, after renewing and reiterating the covenant in v. 27, which Moses was to write down, in v. 28 Moses was to write on the tablets the Ten Commandments.

You are making the assumption that the covenant expressed in vv. 10-26 was the same "ten words" that Moses was to write on the tablets, but that's not necessarily so. In Ex. 20, after the 10 commandments are expressed (vv. 2-17), other commands are given that are not part of the 10 (vv. 23-26). Then in chapters 21-23 (known as the book of the covenant), more laws are given that are not part of the 10. And, interestingly, there are many parts of chapter 23 that correspond to Ex. 34.10-26:

1. Let the fields lie unplowed during each 7th year (Ex. 23.10-11; 34.21)
2. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Ex. 23.15; 34.18)
3. "No one is to appear before me empty-handed (Ex. 23.15; 34. 20)
4. Celebrate the Feast of Harvest (Ex. 23.16; 34.22)
5. Celebrate the Feast of Ingathering (Ex. 23.16; 34.22)
6. Don't offer blood and yeast (Ex. 23.18; 34.25)
7. Bring the first-fruits of the soil (Ex. 23.19; 34.26)
8. I will drive out the people groups (Ex. 23.23; 34.11)
9. Don't bow down and worship their gods (Ex. 23.24; 34.14)
10. Break down their altars (23.24; 34.13)
11. I will enlarge your territory (23.31: 34.24)

What makes the most sense is that the 10 Commandments written in chapter 34 (though they are not spelled out in 34) are the same as the ones in Ex. 20, and that the words of the covenant Moses is writing in 34.10-26 (though not as fully spelled out) are the same as the words of the covenant Moses is writing in Ex. 21-23. Both are 40-day writing periods, and there is enough similarity between the situations and chapters 20-23 and chapter 34 to understanding that this is what is going on.

Actually, no. It's all there in Exodus 34. It begins after Moses breaks the first set of tablets (in chapter 32). Yahweh tells Moses to hew a new set of tablets, and he'll write the same words that were on the first set (verse 1).

Moses re-made the blank tablets and went back up Mount Sinai, waiting for Yahweh to repeat the process (verses 4-9).
With the phrases, "Behold, I make a covenant" (verse 10) and "Observe thou that which I command thee this day" (verse 11), Yahweh begins issuing the commandments, cited in the original post above (verses 12-26).

The very next two verses seal the deal: 27-28: "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

These commandments are referred to, both immediately prior and immediately after, as the "covenant." And the "covenant" is explicitly identified as "the ten commandments" in verse 28. They're not "summarized." They're specifically referred to, verbalized, then referred to again, leaving no doubt.

Let's look it over once again. In Ex. 34, God commands Moses to chisel two stone tablets, upon which God will write what was on the first tablets (that's the first clue that it's going to be the same ten). Moe goes up on the mountain, and the Lord reveals himself (vv.5-7), Moe bows and repents on behalf of the people, and the Lord renews the covenant with them (because it would be easy to believe that the incident of the golden calf in chapter 32 negated the deal). The Lord expresses covenant words—let's try to count 'em.

1. I'll do wonders (10)
2. Obey what I have commanded you (11)
3. I will drive out the people groups (11)
4. Don't make a treaty with them (13, 15), since they were to make a covenant with God, not the surrounding peoples.
5. Break down their altars (13)
6. Don't worship any other gods (14)
7. Don't make cast metal idols (17)
8. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread (18)
9. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including children (19-20)
10. Remember and sanctify the Sabbath (21)
11. Celebrate the Feats of Weeks (22-24)
12. I will drive out the nations before you and enlarge your territory (24)
13. Don't offer the blood of the sacrifice along with anything containing yeast.
14. Bring the first fruit of crops to the Lord.
15. Don't cook a young goat in its mother's milk.

And then, after renewing and reiterating the covenant, in v. 27, which Moses was to write down, in v. 28 Moses was to write on the tablets the Ten Commandments.

You are making the assumption that the covenant expressed in vv. 10-26 was the same "ten words" that Moe was to write on the tablets, but that's not necessarily so. In Ex. 20, after the 10 commandments are expressed (vv. 2-17), other commands are given that are not part of the 10 (vv. 23-26). Then in chapters 21-23 (known as the book of the covenant), more laws are given that are not part of the 10. And, interestingly, there are many parts of chapter 23 that correspond to Ex. 34.10-26:

1. Let the fields lie unplowed during each 7th year (Ex. 23.10-11; 34.21)
2. Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Ex. 23.15; 34.18)
3. "No one is to appear before me empty-handed (Ex. 23.15; 34. 20)
4. Celebrate the Feast of Harvest (Ex. 23.16; 34.22)
5. Celebrate the Feast of Ingathering (Ex. 23.16; 34.22)
6. Don't offer blood and yeast (Ex. 23.18; 34.25)
7. Bring the first-fruits of the soil (Ex. 23.19; 34.26)
8. I will drive out the people groups (Ex. 23.23; 34.11)
9. Don't bow down and worship their gods (Ex. 23.24; 34.14)
10. Break down their altars (23.24; 34.13)
11. I will enlarge your territory (23.31: 34.24)

What makes the most sense is that the 10 Commandments is writing in chapter 34 (though they are not spelled out in 34) are the same as the ones in Ex. 20, and that the words of the covenant Moses is writing in 34.10-26 (though not as fully spelled out) are the same as the words of the covenant Moses is writing in Ex. 21-23. Both are 40-day writing periods, and there is enough similarity between the situations and chapters 20-23 and chapter 34 to understanding that this is what is going on.

Whether there were many laws or not, it is clear that only 10 were inscribed on tablets on both occasions.

If you read Exodus 34, it is clearly lists the 10 rules that God gave to Moses to replace the original 10 from smashed stone tablets. It then goes on to name these rules "the 10 commandments" and it says that Moses carved them into stones.

"Cut two tablets of stone like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets, which you broke..."

(Ten rules are then given)

"The Lord said to Moses: Write these words (refering to the rules just listed); in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."