by jimwalton » Mon May 23, 2022 4:49 pm
> This is still saying that God is constrained and is not truly omnipotent.
What it is saying is that "omnipotence" does NOT mean "unlimited power." We must define omnipotence properly and adequately, or we are left in an endless sea of meaningless where words don't mean anything. But words (and concepts) do have constrained meanings so that we can actually have a mutuality of understanding.
> The problem with the OP's post is not whether omnipotence is logically consistent, it is assuming that divinity can be perceived through a logical framework at all.
It's a great question. Allah, for instance, is impersonal, can be self-contradictory, and is unknowable. But that is in contrast to the God of the Bible. The whole point of the Bible is that God is knowable and that He has made Himself known. His self-revelation is the program that allows us to engage with Him in relationship. As Francis Schaeffer wrote, "God is there and He is not silent."
Schaeffer continues that there are only three possible basic answers to the metaphysics of being, the dilemma of man (we are personal but finite, and so not a sufficient integration point for ourselves), and problem of knowing.
1. There is no logical, rational answer. Everything that exists has come out of absolutely nothing. Nothing nothing: no energy, no mass, no motion, no personality. You must not let anybody say he is giving an answer beginning with nothing and then really begin with something: energy, mass, motion, or personality. That would be something, and something is not nothing. But it is unthinkable that all that now is has come out of utter nothing.All is finally chaotic, irrational, and absurd. If a personal held that everything is meaningless, nothing has answers and there is no cause-and-effect relationships. But this cannot be true. The universe has a certain form and order.
2. Everything that exists had an impersonal beginning (such as mass, energy, or motion, but they are all impersonal, and all equally impersonal). As soon as you accept the impersonal beginning of all things, you are faced with some form of reductionism, which argues that everything there is now is finally to be understood by reducing it to the original, impersonal factor or factors. Beginning with the impersonal, everything, including man, must be explained in terms of the impersonal plus time plus chance. There are no other factors in the formula, because there are no other factors that exist. If we begin with an impersonal, we cannot then have some form of teleological concept. No one has ever demonstrated how time plus chance, beginning with an impersonal, can produce the needed complexity of the universe, let alone the personality of man. If we begin with less than personality, we must finally reduce personality to the impersonal.
3. Everything that exists had a personal beginning. That which is personal began everything else. In this case man, being personal, does have meaning. This is not abstract. It gives a legitimate answer to humanity’s aspiration for personality. To have a sufficient answer for a personal beginning, we need two things: (1) We need a personal-infinite God, and (2) we need a personal unity and diversity in God.
If we follow the logic, we can deduce that God exists and that He can be known.
> This is still saying that God is constrained and is not truly omnipotent.
What it is saying is that "omnipotence" does NOT mean "unlimited power." We must define omnipotence properly and adequately, or we are left in an endless sea of meaningless where words don't mean anything. But words (and concepts) do have constrained meanings so that we can actually have a mutuality of understanding.
> The problem with the OP's post is not whether omnipotence is logically consistent, it is assuming that divinity can be perceived through a logical framework at all.
It's a great question. Allah, for instance, is impersonal, can be self-contradictory, and is unknowable. But that is in contrast to the God of the Bible. The whole point of the Bible is that God is knowable and that He has made Himself known. His self-revelation is the program that allows us to engage with Him in relationship. As Francis Schaeffer wrote, "God is there and He is not silent."
Schaeffer continues that there are only three possible basic answers to the metaphysics of being, the dilemma of man (we are personal but finite, and so not a sufficient integration point for ourselves), and problem of knowing.
1. There is no logical, rational answer. Everything that exists has come out of absolutely nothing. Nothing nothing: no energy, no mass, no motion, no personality. You must not let anybody say he is giving an answer beginning with nothing and then really begin with something: energy, mass, motion, or personality. That would be something, and something is not nothing. But it is unthinkable that all that now is has come out of utter nothing.All is finally chaotic, irrational, and absurd. If a personal held that everything is meaningless, nothing has answers and there is no cause-and-effect relationships. But this cannot be true. The universe has a certain form and order.
2. Everything that exists had an impersonal beginning (such as mass, energy, or motion, but they are all impersonal, and all equally impersonal). As soon as you accept the impersonal beginning of all things, you are faced with some form of reductionism, which argues that everything there is now is finally to be understood by reducing it to the original, impersonal factor or factors. Beginning with the impersonal, everything, including man, must be explained in terms of the impersonal plus time plus chance. There are no other factors in the formula, because there are no other factors that exist. If we begin with an impersonal, we cannot then have some form of teleological concept. No one has ever demonstrated how time plus chance, beginning with an impersonal, can produce the needed complexity of the universe, let alone the personality of man. If we begin with less than personality, we must finally reduce personality to the impersonal.
3. Everything that exists had a personal beginning. That which is personal began everything else. In this case man, being personal, does have meaning. This is not abstract. It gives a legitimate answer to humanity’s aspiration for personality. To have a sufficient answer for a personal beginning, we need two things: (1) We need a personal-infinite God, and (2) we need a personal unity and diversity in God.
If we follow the logic, we can deduce that God exists and that He can be known.