by jimwalton » Fri May 29, 2015 4:30 pm
DB, thanks for writing. Isaiah 13 is not so much an attack on historical Babylon as it was on what Babylon stood for: immorality, idolatry, and demonism, as well as human deification. In the ancient Israelite mindset, Babylon represented all that was rotten and corrupt—the very embodiment of evil as demonstrated by a whole empire. Their history reaches all the way back to Genesis 11 as a culture of arrogant self-deification and power opposed to God. The story of Babylon is the story of nation that defies God. Even outside of the religious context, Babylon was an empire known for its brutality, such as flaying people by removing their skin. this was part of their psychological warfare and was a foreign policy of the empire. They kept their vassal peoples under control through terror.
As far as "collective punishment," we're guilty of regressive anachronism is we read the individuality that is so natural and common in both our mindset and our culture back into the ancient world. The ancients knew nothing of "individuality" in that sense, but perceived their lives in the context of family, clan, and culture. Perhaps a light modern analogy would be that of a sports team: They win or lose as a whole. No one would ever say, "Well, the team lost 84-45, but I won because I scored 30 of our team's 45 points." No, that doesn't matter. You win as a team or lose as a team. In the ancient world, individuality was never a part of the culture. They didn't even think that way. Everything was about the family, clan, tribe, and nation. Everything. They stood together, they fell together. It was an honor-shame culture. If someone did something wrong, it shamed the whole city, for instance, and they would all expect the whole city to be judged by the gods for the sin. They weren't at all being punished for the accident of their birth, but by their complicit participation in a culture defined by systemic evil.
> He seems very selective about dishing put the punishment. So selective he seems blind to pretty egregious behavior.
You'll need to explain what you mean here. Remember that when the Babylonians sinned, God judged them, and when the Israelites were guilty of the same sins, he judged them too. So some explanation from you would be useful to the discussion.
> The culture must be destroyed?
Yes. Some cultures collapse and become nothing but corruption. The closest example we see of this today might be in present day Somalia. Between the warlords, the government, and drug runners, the sex trade, and ISIS, the whole culture has become intractable and incorrigible. Hope for justice, reform, and morality is low. It needs a complete overthrow, overhaul, and replacement which could only happen through very drastic measures.
> So kill people who you disagree with?
Oh, not at all. This is far from an accurate assessment of what Isaiah is calling for.
> Legitimate basis for the use of violence.
I'm not speaking of capital punishment, but military intervention. ISIS today cannot be stopped by diplomatic conversation, but only by the use of greater force to create peace and justice. If you go back and read my #6 in a previous post, it's explained there.
Hope that helps to begin a reasonable conversation. Talk with me. The point is that when a society or culture becomes incorrigibly corrupt and systemically unjust and steeped in violence (much like Germany of the early 1940s), sometimes the only way to bring about moral reform is the use of moral force via military action to bring radical and systemic change to the culture. That's what Isaiah is talking about.
DB, thanks for writing. Isaiah 13 is not so much an attack on historical Babylon as it was on what Babylon stood for: immorality, idolatry, and demonism, as well as human deification. In the ancient Israelite mindset, Babylon represented all that was rotten and corrupt—the very embodiment of evil as demonstrated by a whole empire. Their history reaches all the way back to Genesis 11 as a culture of arrogant self-deification and power opposed to God. The story of Babylon is the story of nation that defies God. Even outside of the religious context, Babylon was an empire known for its brutality, such as flaying people by removing their skin. this was part of their psychological warfare and was a foreign policy of the empire. They kept their vassal peoples under control through terror.
As far as "collective punishment," we're guilty of regressive anachronism is we read the individuality that is so natural and common in both our mindset and our culture back into the ancient world. The ancients knew nothing of "individuality" in that sense, but perceived their lives in the context of family, clan, and culture. Perhaps a light modern analogy would be that of a sports team: They win or lose as a whole. No one would ever say, "Well, the team lost 84-45, but I won because I scored 30 of our team's 45 points." No, that doesn't matter. You win as a team or lose as a team. In the ancient world, individuality was never a part of the culture. They didn't even think that way. Everything was about the family, clan, tribe, and nation. Everything. They stood together, they fell together. It was an honor-shame culture. If someone did something wrong, it shamed the whole city, for instance, and they would all expect the whole city to be judged by the gods for the sin. They weren't at all being punished for the accident of their birth, but by their complicit participation in a culture defined by systemic evil.
> He seems very selective about dishing put the punishment. So selective he seems blind to pretty egregious behavior.
You'll need to explain what you mean here. Remember that when the Babylonians sinned, God judged them, and when the Israelites were guilty of the same sins, he judged them too. So some explanation from you would be useful to the discussion.
> The culture must be destroyed?
Yes. Some cultures collapse and become nothing but corruption. The closest example we see of this today might be in present day Somalia. Between the warlords, the government, and drug runners, the sex trade, and ISIS, the whole culture has become intractable and incorrigible. Hope for justice, reform, and morality is low. It needs a complete overthrow, overhaul, and replacement which could only happen through very drastic measures.
> So kill people who you disagree with?
Oh, not at all. This is far from an accurate assessment of what Isaiah is calling for.
> Legitimate basis for the use of violence.
I'm not speaking of capital punishment, but military intervention. ISIS today cannot be stopped by diplomatic conversation, but only by the use of greater force to create peace and justice. If you go back and read my #6 in a previous post, it's explained there.
Hope that helps to begin a reasonable conversation. Talk with me. The point is that when a society or culture becomes incorrigibly corrupt and systemically unjust and steeped in violence (much like Germany of the early 1940s), sometimes the only way to bring about moral reform is the use of moral force via military action to bring radical and systemic change to the culture. That's what Isaiah is talking about.