by jimwalton » Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:40 pm
> …and? They still exist as “things” in the sense of being an existential phenomenon, basic English
If you want to go to "basic English" (and, by the way, the Bible wasn't written in basic English nor in our modern worldview), "existence" is a tricky thing to identify and define. Does the past "exist"? Does math? What about surprise? Consciousness? I'm guessing that what the OP meant by "existence," since he/she said as much, is that it is "something." Well, that's just as oblique. For a materialist, to say that the past (or any of my other examples) "exists" is a problem. What is a memory? An intuition? Do intuitions "exist"? This gets squirrely real fast. Are they "existential phenomena"? That's extremely dubious and debatable.
> Didn’t he create everything?
Materially, yes. Abstractly, no. There are many "things" God did not create: lying, cheating, sin, adultery, and innumerable others.
> why would any of these things not be his fault?
These "things" would not be His fault because they are not truly "things." And if you truly believe that they are, then I can assume you are thanking God every day for the air you breathe, the food you eat, any health and strength you have, every opportunity you are given, each success you experience, and every smile on your face. If you are consistent, God is to be credited as much as faulted.
> Then why are his creations and the universe he created with infinite knowledge of how they/it would turn out so evil and awful all the time?
This is a different conversation, but briefly, they are not so "evil and awful all the time." We have friends, food, laughter, love, science, doctors, beauty, and purpose. Life is a balance of "evil and awful" and "beautiful and joyful."
> How do things exist in an omnipotent all knowing gods universe that he created without his intention?
When someone drives recklessly and crashes their car, is that Ford's fault? Is Louisville Slugger to blame if you choose to use their bat to slug someone in the head rather than play baseball? People choose to use items outside of their intention; the manufacturer is not to blame if you choose to use a car to drive into a group of people standing on the sidewalk. Intentions and use are completely different things.
> …who were created by god
Of course people as a human race were created by God, but each individual was not precisely designed so that we are mere automatons playing out a devious scheme. Instead, we are biologically born, shaped by nature and nurture, our choices and our experiences, and God is not to be blamed for the experiences we have or the choices we make.
> …and? They still exist as “things” in the sense of being an existential phenomenon, basic English
If you want to go to "basic English" (and, by the way, the Bible wasn't written in basic English nor in our modern worldview), "existence" is a tricky thing to identify and define. Does the past "exist"? Does math? What about surprise? Consciousness? I'm guessing that what the OP meant by "existence," since he/she said as much, is that it is "something." Well, that's just as oblique. For a materialist, to say that the past (or any of my other examples) "exists" is a problem. What is a memory? An intuition? Do intuitions "exist"? This gets squirrely real fast. Are they "existential phenomena"? That's extremely dubious and debatable.
> Didn’t he create everything?
Materially, yes. Abstractly, no. There are many "things" God did not create: lying, cheating, sin, adultery, and innumerable others.
> why would any of these things not be his fault?
These "things" would not be His fault because they are not truly "things." And if you truly believe that they are, then I can assume you are thanking God every day for the air you breathe, the food you eat, any health and strength you have, every opportunity you are given, each success you experience, and every smile on your face. If you are consistent, God is to be credited as much as faulted.
> Then why are his creations and the universe he created with infinite knowledge of how they/it would turn out so evil and awful all the time?
This is a different conversation, but briefly, they are not so "evil and awful all the time." We have friends, food, laughter, love, science, doctors, beauty, and purpose. Life is a balance of "evil and awful" and "beautiful and joyful."
> How do things exist in an omnipotent all knowing gods universe that he created without his intention?
When someone drives recklessly and crashes their car, is that Ford's fault? Is Louisville Slugger to blame if you choose to use their bat to slug someone in the head rather than play baseball? People choose to use items outside of their intention; the manufacturer is not to blame if you choose to use a car to drive into a group of people standing on the sidewalk. Intentions and use are completely different things.
> …who were created by god
Of course people as a human race were created by God, but each individual was not precisely designed so that we are mere automatons playing out a devious scheme. Instead, we are biologically born, shaped by nature and nurture, our choices and our experiences, and God is not to be blamed for the experiences we have or the choices we make.