I'm struggling with how you don't seem to catch the necessity of cause and effect and the nature of justice. It's impossible for there to be no punishment for sin. The necessary effect of separation from life is death. You can't just willy-nilly say that separation from life is more life. That's a self-contradiction. Separation from life is non-life, viz., death. There's no other choice.

Second, the nature of justice is that there are consequences for wrong-doing. To treat wrong-doing the same as right-doing is not justice. There is no other choice under any true conception of justice.

Therefore he's not a cavalier masochist ("he just wants to be punished"), a deceptive masochist ("but doesn't want to admit it") or "[coming] up with shady reasons." There is inevitable and necessary cause and effect, and there is true justice.

He could step in and let no one be punished for your sins. Instead he is voluntarily giving himself the punishment that you deserve. He has three options:

1) Make it so that no one needs to be punished for your sins
2) Make it so that you and you alone need to be punished for your sins
3) Make it so that You or someone other than you needs to be punished for your sins

For some odd reason he went with the third option and opted to take the punishment for your sins upon himself instead of simply making it so that no one needs to be punished for your sins. It really does seem like he just wants to be punished but doesn't want to admit it, so he comes up with shady reasons why his punishment is necessary for our salvation.

The explanation helps. Let me try to answer your query: Somebody's separation from life is NOT the inevitable consequence of MY sins. MY separation from life is the inevitable consequence of my sin. Jesus is voluntarily stepping in to balance the debt on my behalf, even though he doesn't have to. He is not being forced to, because he could just let justice take its course, and we would all be condemned. But out of love he chooses to step into the picture and do something on our behalf. In that sense I guess you could say he's an insane masochist, but since it's motivated by love, it's more like he's the most intense and committed lover one could ever imagine.

Yes I understand that the absence of life is death. I understand why anything else would be logically impossible. But I'm not asking why death is the inevitable consequence of separation from life. I'm asking why somebody's separation from life is the inevitable consequence of your sins. That is not logically necessary.

The inevitable consequences of your sins does not logically have to be that you or someone else must be separated from life. That's absurd. If God didn't want for anybody to be separated from life because you sinned, he could have easily made it so.

If he is being forced to punishing himself for what you did, then he not all-powerful. If he is choosing to unnecessarily punish himself for what you did, then he is an insane masochist.

I've been trying to humor you, and I've explained this about 8 times, so I'm not sure what else to say.

> Are the "inevitable consequences" of sin what God wants them to be?

For the 9th time, no. They are what they are. God did not mandate what the spiritual consequences of sin would be. If you remove something from the sphere of life, it is in the sphere of death. God didn't choose that, it's the only possibility. The absence of light is darkness, the absence of good is evil, the absence of life is death.

> Does God want the consequences of your actions to be?

For the 9th time, this is an illegitimate question. The consequences of your actions are what they are, and there is no logic to asking, "What does God **want** them to be?"

If you want to talk about the character of God, we can do that. But you can't ask what God wants the consequences of sin to be and think we are talking about God's character. The consequences of sin is what they are, not what God chooses them to be.

Are the "inevitable consequences" of sin what God wants them to be? They would have to be, right? Why would God allow the consequences of sin to be something other that what he wants them to be?

Now let's look at what's actually going on. You sinned. Does God want the consequences of your actions to be:

a) for you to be punished with separation from life?

b) for someone else to be punished with separation from life?

c) for nobody to be punished with separation from life?

This is not me asking you what you ate for lunch. This is a very enlightening question that would reveal to me something about God's character that I am very curious about. Will you not humor me?

I know I didn't answer it, because you're asking the wrong questions. it's like Hillary Clinton on trial for the Benghazi debacle, and someone asking where they ate lunch that day.

You seem to think that God either wants somebody to be punished (oh boy, oh boy, I get to whip somebody!), that he doesn't want anybody to be punished (I don't care about justice, let's just have a picnic!), or does he want to punish himself (I'm a masochist and I live to injure myself!). These all miss the point of what was going on, and that's why I'm not answering. If I answer one of your questions, it will lead you in the wrong direction of understanding.

Sin had its own consequences. You can't say God wanted to punish someone or didn't want to punish someone or wanted to punish himself. Those are all misleading. And though sin had its own consequences, God was not trapped by them, but had an effective plan to disarm those consequences.

And it's not a matter of "he doesn't want anybody to be punished...because you sinned," because there are inevitable consequences to sin that have nothing to do with what God "wants".

You didn't answer my question. Does God want somebody else to be punished with separation from life because you sinned? Does he want anybody to need to be punished with separation from life because you sinned? Does he want to punish himself with separation from life because you sinned?

If he doesn't want to do any of those things but the universe is forcing him to, then he is being backed into a corner. He is being forced to do something that he doesn't want to do.

If he doesn't want anybody to be punished with separation from life because you sinned, then why doesn't he make it so?

I always fear to use analogies with you, but I'll try one that I hopefully won't regret. God's not backed into a corner because when he created the world, he made a door in that corner. There's a door in every corner. There are doors along the walls, trap doors in the floor, and ports in the ceiling. He's never trapped. Sin causes death, but there's a way out. We can't free ourselves, but God can free us; he has the keys of death and hell, and so he can open the door and get us out.

If God doesn't want to punish anybody with separation from life because you sinned, but the universe is forcing him to, that means God is being backed into a corner.

Or are you saying that, while God doesn't want you to be punished with separation from life because you sinned, he does want somebody to be punished with separation from life because you sinned?