by Without You » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:49 pm
> You did nothing to earn your first birth. Neither do you earn your second (spiritual) birth.
Are we just going to speak through Biblical sounding metaphors now? Fine, I'll play along: Hear ye, although the first birth was done through no merit or will on our part; the second birth was made through seeking and clear intention! We enter into the first birth as babes in the wood, knowing of the world, but come to the second birth as bucks weathered by time and experience. It is the second birth that is the true birth because it is only through the effort of our choosing that it is brought to pass!
> Repent means to turn and go in the other direction. It has no relation to earning anything.
If a person dies without repenting are they saved from hell? If the answer is "no,"
then it is the case that the "effort" of repenting is part of what one has to do to "earn" being saved from hell.
> If you read my paragraph, "keeping the law" in the Gospels is not earning anything, but is explained as following Jesus. Of course there is effort involved, but no earning of anything.
If someone that follows Jesus gets something that those that do not follow Jesus do not, then, by definition, the "effort" that Jesus' followers put in is what "earns" them the thing they get (in this case salvation from hell).
> Deny oneself does take effort, but it's not earning. It's like saying, "I'm not going to use any of the money in my bank account." It's not earning, it's instead simply passivity.
"Denying oneself" usually refers to resisting temptation of some kind and is not synonymous with mere passivity. If someone is tempted to spend their money on various items, but they resist that temptation and refrain from doing so, then they have "earned" the fact that the money remains in their account and is not spent based on that psychological "effort."
> Good works and love of neighbor. Yep, but if you think "earning," as stated in your original post, captures the essence of salvation, you are way off the mark.
The definition of "earn" is "(of an activity) cause (someone) to obtain (something)." So, if the person that does good works etc... and this activity causes them to obtain (something) that the person that did not do good works does not, then, by definition, they have earned that (something).
> Wait. You think drinking a glass of cold water that was gifted to you shows that you earned it?
No, I don't. Because there is nothing in that description that ties the getting or keeping of the glass of water that was given to the getting or keeping of the glass of water.
> I think you're working far too hard to prove a case that can't hold water. Remember your original premise: "Salvation is not a gift because it must be earned." The premise is proved by my case to be false.
No, it isn't.
> You did nothing to earn your first birth. Neither do you earn your second (spiritual) birth.
Are we just going to speak through Biblical sounding metaphors now? Fine, I'll play along: Hear ye, although the first birth was done through no merit or will on our part; the second birth was made through seeking and clear intention! We enter into the first birth as babes in the wood, knowing of the world, but come to the second birth as bucks weathered by time and experience. It is the second birth that is the true birth because it is only through the effort of our choosing that it is brought to pass!
> Repent means to turn and go in the other direction. It has no relation to earning anything.
If a person dies without repenting are they saved from hell? If the answer is "no,"
then it is the case that the "effort" of repenting is part of what one has to do to "earn" being saved from hell.
> If you read my paragraph, "keeping the law" in the Gospels is not earning anything, but is explained as following Jesus. Of course there is effort involved, but no earning of anything.
If someone that follows Jesus gets something that those that do not follow Jesus do not, then, by definition, the "effort" that Jesus' followers put in is what "earns" them the thing they get (in this case salvation from hell).
> Deny oneself does take effort, but it's not earning. It's like saying, "I'm not going to use any of the money in my bank account." It's not earning, it's instead simply passivity.
"Denying oneself" usually refers to resisting temptation of some kind and is not synonymous with mere passivity. If someone is tempted to spend their money on various items, but they resist that temptation and refrain from doing so, then they have "earned" the fact that the money remains in their account and is not spent based on that psychological "effort."
> Good works and love of neighbor. Yep, but if you think "earning," as stated in your original post, captures the essence of salvation, you are way off the mark.
The definition of "earn" is "(of an activity) cause (someone) to obtain (something)." So, if the person that does good works etc... and this activity causes them to obtain (something) that the person that did not do good works does not, then, by definition, they have earned that (something).
> Wait. You think drinking a glass of cold water that was gifted to you shows that you earned it?
No, I don't. Because there is nothing in that description that ties the getting or keeping of the glass of water that was given to the getting or keeping of the glass of water.
> I think you're working far too hard to prove a case that can't hold water. Remember your original premise: "Salvation is not a gift because it must be earned." The premise is proved by my case to be false.
No, it isn't.