Do Christians hold on to too much money?

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Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by jimwalton » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:43 pm

You seem to be working real hard here to prove something unreasonable, and I'm still not sure what it is. "Methinks thou protests too much." But let me deal with your last paragraph. Maybe that's where I should expend my efforts.

> God knows everything and can do anything.

Wrong. It doesn’t mean there are no limits to what God can do. It means God is able to do all things that are proper objects of his power. It is no contradiction that God can realize whatever is possible, but that no number of actualized possibilities exhausts his power. God can realize whatever is possible. There are, however, certain qualifications of this all-powerful character of God. He cannot arbitrarily do anything whatsoever that we may conceive of.
- He can’t do what is logically absurd or contradictory
- He can’t act contrary to his nature
- He cannot fail to do what he has promised
- The theology of omnipotence rejects the possibility of dualism
- He cannot interfere with the freedom of man
- He cannot change the past
- It is not violated by self-limitation on the part of God
- It does not imply the use of all the power of God

> God chose to create a world knowing that I would be born into particular circumstances with a particular brain.

Right. And this dynamical world God created is far superior to the alternative of a static world.

> God knows that in these circumstances I will honestly reach the wrong answer about his existence.

Right. Though He has given you enough information for you to make the correct choice, and continues (within that dynamical framework) to persuade you, it is within your control, and your control only, to make the right choice.

> He could have chosen to create a world where I had a different brain that allowed me to reach the correct conclusion.

Wrong. A world of you having a different kind of brain that only allowed you to make right conclusions is not within His scope to do. It is a self-contradictory world where choice is necessary but impossible.

> But he chose this world, and as a result he will punish me in the afterlife for something that he chose.

Wrong. He will punish you in the afterlife for what you choose. He is continually giving you right information to make the correct decision. Even your many many conversations with me could easily be construed as God making his appeal to you through me: Come to God. Acknowledge the truth. Stop pushing against all of God's input, and submit to His call to you. But if you choose to continue to rebel and resist, He is not to blame. Your brain has the capacity (since that was one of your questions) to acknowledge Him. You are not convinced, obviously, and are choosing a path of your own making. You will only be punished in the afterlife for what you have chosen.

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by J Lord » Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:27 pm

> When I tell my wife I love her, that's not an achievement, but a disclosure.

But you first have to believe that you have a wife who exists. This is a question of fact and if you get the answer wrong then you cannot make this disclosure.

> I could be either mistaken or defiant against what I've been taught, but either way it's within my control.

So when you are mistaken about something, you are choosing to be mistaken? That makes no sense. All you can do is keep trying to get an answer correct. You cannot just choose to be correct. If you try your best and get it wrong, this is not something you have chosen to do and is not something within your control

> God neither controls what I think or the limits of my thinking.

Your brain controls and limits your thinking. So if God had anything to do with creating your brain, then God controls and limits your thinking.

> I'm not at all catching the progression of thought here,

God knows everything and can do anything. God chose to create a world knowing that I would be born into particular circumstances with a particular brain. God knows that in these circumstances I will honestly reach the wrong answer about his existence. He could have chosen to create a world where I had a different brain that allowed me to reach the correct conclusion. But he chose this world, and as a result he will punish me in the afterlife for something that he chose.

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by jimwalton » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:33 pm

> Well it's something they have to do.

They are responsible and accountable for their decisions, but this is not a "work". Ephesians 2.8-9 makes the distinction between "faith" and "works". Faith is a spiritual response, a coming to awareness and making an admission, not something we do to merit favor.

> If you don't consider getting the right answer to a question to be an achievement

When I tell my wife I love her, that's not an achievement, but a disclosure. When I admit to her that I trust her, that's not an achievement either, but a state of being in myself that I recognize. Neither of those are "human achievements." So also my love for God and trust in Him.

> Then God is punishing people for things that they cannot control.

Oh, but I can control it. I am a free being who can reason, evaluate, and choose. I could be either mistaken or defiant against what I've been taught, but either way it's within my control.

> The limits of a person reasoning ability are actually within God's control more than a person's control.

I disagree with this strongly. God neither controls what I think or the limits of my thinking. We humans run the gamut from incapacitated mental patients to Stephen Hawking. God is not controlling anything about our thinking. The Bible never teaches any such thing.

> So really God is punishing people for something he did himself.

An illegitimate conclusion if ever I saw one. I'm not at all catching the progression of thought here, since neither premises, points, nor conclusion are anything the Bible teaches or that Christians believe.

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by J Lord » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:28 pm

> Intellectual recognition is not a "work" that people must do to earn their way into the kingdom.

Well, it's something they have to do. If they don't correctly analyze the available evidence they get punished. If you don't consider getting the right answer to a question to be an achievement, I think you are making a subjective distinction.

> I have reached the wrong conclusion and I am punished for holding an honest but mistaken belief.

Then God is punishing people for things that they cannot control. The limits of a person reasoning ability are actually within God's control more than a person's control. So really God is punishing people for something he did himself. It makes no sense.

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by jimwalton » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:10 pm

No, that's incorrect. I don't know of anyone who considers belief in God a human achievement. Intellectual recognition is not a "work" that people must do to earn their way into the kingdom. Belief is a state, not a performance.

> If a person evaluates the evidence and reaches the wrong conclusion then God punishes them for holding an honest but mistaken belief.

That's correct, and it's no different from other disciplines. There are right and wrong answers. I answer questions on my physics exam that I consider to be right, but the prof marks them wrong. I have reached the wrong conclusion and I am punished for holding an honest but mistaken belief. So also in any field. It's even the case in jurisprudence. Someone may consider that what they are doing is justified and correct, but if it's against the law, one can be punished for holding an honest but mistaken belief.

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by J Lord » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:06 pm

So then it is impossible to attain the Kingdom of God without human achievement. One has to reach the correct conclusion about whether God exists or not. If a person evaluates the evidence and reaches the wrong conclusion then God punishes them for holding an honest but mistaken belief.

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by jimwalton » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:44 pm

Yes. Hebrews 11.6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Believing in and being convinced of God's existence is the first element of faith. The very existence of God is a matter of intelligent faith. Romans 1.19-20 confirm the same thought.

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by J Lord » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:35 pm

You said, "It is absolutely impossible to attain the Kingdom of God through human achievement." Do you think a person needs to believe that God exists in order to be saved?

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by jimwalton » Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:12 pm

It's interesting that you say that. The disciples had exactly the same reaction: "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, 'Who then can be saved?' " (Mt. 19.25 and Synoptic parallels).

Notice that Jesus didn't say it was impossible for a rich man (and neither did you), but only difficult. Money tends to make one feel independent, enslaving one to one's possessions and assets. Money also tends to make a person selfish. All of these things are contrary to life as a disciple.

The disciples' question, though, generalizes the issue—it's broader than the immediate discussion. They presumed that riches were signs of God's blessing, so if these guys aren't in God's favor, who is?

They are showing a fundamental misunderstanding of salvation. It seems like they assumed good circumstances (wealth) was a sign of God’s blessing, and that being good (worthy of wealth) was what was required for entrance to heaven. Jesus sidelines that whole theology, and knocks them right off balance.

It is absolutely impossible to attain the Kingdom of God through human achievement. Man cannot save himself or anyone else. Only God can save. No power to save or to deliver is given to man, nor is it possible for man to attain such a power. Such power is grounded in the omnipotence of God alone and must proceed from this. There is nothing about salvation that is possible for us. We can’t earn, deserve it, get it by devotion, by birth, or from upbringing. There is no part of salvation within reach of our capability. All notions of salvation must be discarded for the one true way: God provides it.

So let's get back to your immediate question: Is it virtually impossible for a rich person to enter heaven? I can name some very rich people from the Bible who were believers: Abraham, Joseph, Daniel, Joseph of Arimathea, to name a few. So we know it's not completely impossible. But it is impossible to love both God and money (Lk. 16.13), and we know that money is a source of all kinds of evil (1 Tim. 6.10). So it's definitely far more difficult. Money has a siren call on people, and it's generally at odds with spiritual disciplines.

Re: Do Christians hold on to too much money?

Post by J Lord » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:23 pm

The way Jesus described it, it sounds virtually impossible for a rich person to enter heaven.

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