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[Steven Not Believin']

America was never a Christian nation. America was always Babylon. America was built on genocide and slavery. Jesus in no way would have ever condoned such evil acts. Love your neighbor. Love your Samaritan neighbor; a people that were disenfranchised by both Jew and Gentile. Love your neighbor as yourself. All of your neighbors. Those like you, those unlike you, and those you were taught to hate. Love them all. Many who committed these terrible acts in America did so while at the same time professing to follow Jesus. However Jesus taught us that “many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name? Then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.’” Modern American Christianity is also of this form. They don’t blink an eye when our black neighbors are oppressed and silenced, slaughtered by the police, and treated like second-class citizens. The American church perpetuates white supremacy. The priorities are upside down. There should never be a union between the state and the church. What does the kingdom of God have in common with Babylon? A union between the state and the church has always hurt the kingdom. It has also always hurt the state. Secular government is better than theocracy. America was always Babylon, and the Kingdom of God is not part of America. Nor should it be. Love for our neighbor should always trump our love for the state (in fact we should have no love for the state). And this especially includes neighbors not like us, neighbors we don’t like, and neighbors that are different than us.

[jimwalton]

Wow, lots to chew on and disagree with here.

1. America was a Christian nation.

The settlers of the first Virginia colony: To propagate the Christian religion for the worship of God.
The Pilgrims in MA: for the glory of God and the advancement of the Christian faith.
The Puritans. Christian.
The 1629 charter of Massachusetts: knowledge of and obedience to the only true God and Savior of mankind, the Christian faith.
The 1632 charter for MD: to extend the Christian religion
The Quakers and other Christian groups in NC: propagation of the Christian faith
1663 Charter for Rhode Island: religious intentions, edifying each other in the Christian faith
1680 charter for PA: Christian religion
So also CT, NH, NJ and other areas.
America’s first governments: CT: “And orderly and decent gov’t established according to God.”
NH: “In the name of Christ and in the sight of God…set up gov’t.”
1643, MA & others formed a coalition “to advance the kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Carolina: “acknowledged God.”
PA: “The biblical nature of civil gov’t.”
And so much more...

2. "America was built on genocide and slavery." America was guilty of it, for sure, but it's a matter of debatable nuance if it was "built on it." Some of the native tribes were pushed out (displaced), some lived with us (reservations in NY, for instance), and some were killed. The "genocide" happened primarily in the mid-19th century, but a large portion of that was defensive, not offensive. It's debatable whether "genocide" is the most accurate descriptor.

As for slavery, that was integral to the agricultural South, but not to the industrial north or the migration westward (though the abuse of the Chinese and European immigrant work force borders on slavery). It's probably not accurate to say America was built on the backs of slaves, though the slavery abuses of the antebellum South are abhorrent.

3. "Modern American Christianity is also of this form. They don’t blink an eye when our black neighbors are oppressed and silenced, slaughtered by the police, and treated like second class citizens. The American church perpetuates white supremacy." None of this is true. The American church advocates and practices integration, love, and racial equality. The American church is active in communities to break down racism, injustice, abuses, and to promote the dignity of all human beings.

4. "There should never be a union between the state and the church." I agree with this. I'm not aware of any significant movement to alter this.

5. "America was always Babylon, and the Kingdom of God is not part of America." I'm not at all convinced of the first half, but agree strongly with the second segment.

[LMMA]

I agree with pretty much everything you have said, Steven not Believin'. What are your thoughts on UU (Unitarian Universalist) churches? Granted, there are still some variances in these as well. I've loved mine, so I can have a community that is big in advocacy and progressive values. It's also great to learn from all belief systems. Probably not anarchist though, haha.

Also, I never thought about the ties between my church's advocacy and politics. For instance, they work to promote legislation such as marriage equality, death with dignity, etc.

[Dr. John Boyd]

Jim, I know a rhetorical question when I hear it! If you are looking for feedback from other ministers, here goes.

1. America was considered by the majority of those who first came here a haven of refuge for religious freedom. It can never be considered a Babylon because it is not just a place where captives live.

2. America was built on the perseverance of those who came here, bonded with others and worked here, and were dependent upon their God to uphold them as they fought against the intrusion of others here. Americans utilized the culture that existed in many other nations at the time - slavery...but the slaves were given much greater opportunities than elsewhere in the world. (Most of the slave owners were Democrats.)

3. There are black churches and white churches and some mixed-race churches. There is no such acknowledgement of white supremacy in our constitution

4. Explain the question...

[jimwalton]

Dr. John Boyd, I didn't mean it as rhetorical, because I actually someone say these things to me, in all honesty and pure cynicism. (1) I think the evidence is strong that America was founded (in general terms) to be a Christian nation (though I remember something about Georgia being settled as a prison colony). (2) I agree that slavery was in the South and abhorrent, but there was also the industrialized (and free) north, as well as the free middle America and West. (3) The question wasn't about our constitution, but about our present-day churches. (4) The statement was "Secular government is better than theocracy. America was always Babylon, and the Kingdom of God is not part of America. Nor should it be." I agree to the separation of church and state, and that the K of Go is not part of America, but not that America was always Babylon.

[Pure Elise]

#3 is a sweeping generalized statement. Your argument can be unraveled with simply the mention of westboro baptist church. You cannot argue that they are not technically considered an "American Christian" church as that is their technical classification. More extreme examples aside, I have definitely been to racist churches before. Needless to say I never went back.

[jimwalton]

Pure Elise—For one, sweeping generalizations were endemic to the original post. Secondly, the presence of one radical module doesn't define the whole, possibly in the same sense that ISIS doesn't define Islam and Donald Trump doesn't define the republican party, though both of those examples are closer to other strands of their fields than Westboro is with mainstream (i.e., real) Christianity. We Christians don't embrace the KKK as one of our own, nor do we stand side-by-side with Westboro. Just because an entity self-identifies as Christian doesn't make them such. A movement is not defined by its extremists.

And while you may have found an isolated Christian congregation that embraces racism, taking the whole of Steve's radical statement and aligning it with whole truth about the Christian church (and not a few pockets of wayward extremists), his statement is demonstrably false.

[Steven Not Believin']

I honestly know very little about UU. I also have a strange tension in my beliefs. Politically I'm either an anarcho-syndicalist or a Marxist-Leninist depending on my mood and how angry I am, and I'm also an existential Christian. These things are often at odds with each other. Politics and ideology color everything for me, however, which is probably unusual, but I'm deeply entrenched in politics. It's a coping mechanism, honestly. It gives me something to care about. And trying to find some unity between on the surface wildly different ideologies is a task that I enjoy.

I separate the metaphysical or ontological perspective from the existential perspective. Metaphysically, I doubt very highly that God exists. I'm a moral nihilist, I'm a mereological nihilist, etc. However, in the existential perspective I'm a Kierkegaardian. So I have this faith in God despite the fact I don't believe in God and the existence of God is absurd. For, like, authenticity or whatever. I guess at the end of the day I'm just a filthy continental.

[Dr. John Boyd]

Although Psalm 33:12 refers directly to Israel, do you believe it also refers to any nation whose god is the Lord? I do not believe in 'separation of church and state.' It sets up an anomaly. How can a Christian be submissive to the power of government if that government enforces ungodly laws? How can the currency of a nation state 'In God we trust' and have laws on its books supporting ungodly behavior? How can God bless America where millions of pre-born children are murdered legally? It should be obvious that in decades past God has indeed blessed America. It should be equally evident that in recent years God has begun to remove His hand from this nation. It is imperative that respect for God be re-instituted in every corner of this land. Maybe it is not too late! It would take a miracle...but God is in the miracle business.

[jimwalton]

John, I do think that Ps. 33.12 refers to any nation, even though it was written to Israel. And I like what you wrote. Thank you for it.