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[Irish]

I have a question I am unable to answer through scripture or theological explanations. John Piper said this is the most difficult question he deals with as a Christian. God created Lucifer as the greatest of his heavenly hosts. Lucifer betrayed God by committing a sinful act; idolatry (of himself). Isn't a sin inclination (inherent sin) in Lucifer a sign of imperfection in God's creation?

[jimwalton]

You're right that you're unable to answer it through Scripture or theological explanations because the Bible doesn't tell us (though I disagree with Piper that this is the most difficult question).

> God created Lucifer as the greatest of his heavenly hosts.

First of all, we don't know this. This understanding comes from a tradition, and now considered false, reading of Isaiah 11. It is now widely thought, though many Christians and deconverted still hang onto the tradition they were taught as children, that this text is about the king of Babylon, not about Satan. The truth is, we are told nothing about Satan's origins. We don't know what kind of being he was or what happened to him.

> Lucifer betrayed God by committing a sinful act; idolatry (of himself).

This also comes from Isaiah 11, which, it turns out, is not about Satan.

What we do know is that God created all things good (Genesis 1), and that God can create only good things (James 1.17). So we have to surmise that whatever act Satan took to disassociate from God, it was an act he took in and of himself as an exercise of his will. (Jude 6 verifies for us that spirit beings have will.) That's about all we know, and that is even by inference, not by what is written. There is nothing written about the origin of Satan.

Here's what I guess: God created all things good, but since God is, by definition uncreated, anything He created (which is all things) is less than God, less than perfect, less than eternal, less than...oh, everything, which means all created beings are vulnerable to and capable of missing the mark. Satan, whatever he was, made a choice somewhere along the way, as was his right to do, and disassociated from God. How a being could see the beauty, majesty, and power of God and turn away is beyond me, but hey, it obviously happened. How, and why, we are not told.

> Isn't a sin inclination (inherent sin) in Lucifer a sign of imperfection in God's creation?

It's not a sign of imperfection, but is necessary by the action. Any created thing can't qualify as uncreated. Anything that has a beginning can't qualify as eternal. It's not a flaw in the Creator or in what He created, but endemic to the act. If I were to create the most perfect cut crystal glass, I'm not to blame if someone drops it and it breaks. Glass, by nature, breaks. That doesn't mean I didn't create it perfectly well.

[Wooly]

But if you were to create the nature of glass prior to making your crystal glass, its ability to break and not stay perfect means it isn’t perfectly created.

[jimwalton]

You missed the point of the analogy and are taking the analogy where it was never meant to go. I didn't create the glass so that it would break, it's just that being vulnerable to breakage is inevitable, given the nature of glass.

God didn't create us so that we would break. It is impossible to create something that is uncreated, or to create something that has no beginning. Anything created is less than God. Since only uncreated, eternal divine beings are invulnerable to error, anything created is less than an uncreated, eternal divine being.

My point in the analogy is that perfection in the created object doesn't require that it is unbreakable. It is breakable by nature, not by flaw of creation.

[Be More Original]

You consider Isaiah false but trust in genesis which is blatantly false and James.

> Here's what I guess: God created all things good, but since God is, by definition uncreated, anything He created (which is all things) is less than God, less than perfect, less than eternal, less than...oh, everything, which means all created beings are vulnerable to and capable of missing the mark. Satan, whatever he was, made a choice somewhere along the way, as was his right to do, and disassociated from God. How a being could see the beauty, majesty, and power of God and turn away is beyond me, but hey, it obviously happened. How, and why, we are not told.

So in essence, god punishes his failures at creation by sending them to be tortured forever, at no fault of their own. Have you seen god and his beauty, majesty, and power? What’s obvious? We have no proof of any of the supernatural occurrences in the Bible or in the real world.

> It's not a sign of imperfection, but is necessary by the action. Any created thing can't qualify as uncreated. Anything that has a beginning can't qualify as eternal. It's not a flaw in the Creator or in what He created, but endemic to the act. If I were to create the most perfect cut crystal glass, I'm not to blame if someone drops it and it breaks. Glass, by nature, breaks. That doesn't mean I didn't create it perfectly well.

It most definitely is a sign of imperfection. God is all powerful and could create an eternal being... Angels? Your analogy doesn’t work because you’d have to state you created the glass with a defect. This defect effects some of your glass to break and some to be ok.

[jimwalton]

> You consider Isaiah false but trust in genesis which is blatantly false and James.

Whoa, not at all. I didn't in the least say or imply that Isaiah was false. What I said was that one traditional interpretation of Isaiah that has been popular in recent times is false.

And since when is Genesis "blatantly false"? Where did that come from? We haven't even talked about Genesis yet.

> So in essence, god punishes his failures at creation by sending them to be tortured forever, at no fault of their own.

Whoa, where did THIS come from? The question was about Satan's origin, and my answer was about Satan's origin, and now you're talking about hell? And then you toss in "at no fault of their own"? I sense a chip on your shoulder that's coming out irrespective of the conversation at hand. If you want to talk about hell, that's a different conversation and has nothing to do with Satan's origin.

> Have you seen god and his beauty, majesty, and power? What’s obvious?

Sure. The heavens reflect the glory of God, and I consider them to be beautiful, majestic, and a display of power.

> We have no proof of any of the supernatural occurrences in the Bible or in the real world.

There's plenty of proof. Over 2 billion people on the planet claim to be Christians—supernaturally changed by the supernatural power of God. The resurrection of Jesus has evidences and can be examined in the real world as a historical event. I have this feeling you have a chip on your shoulder and you're just venting at me. Stand down, soldier. Let's talk.

> It most definitely is a sign of imperfection.

So you're telling me that if I create an awesome car, and someone hits it and wrecks it, that it's a design flaw?

> God is all powerful and could create an eternal being

Now you're dipping into the absurd. God create an eternal being? If it's created, it's not eternal. Think about it.

> Angels?

Angels aren't eternal. They're created beings. They had a beginning. If they're eternal, they weren't created. If they're created, they're not eternal.

> Your analogy doesn’t work because you’d have to state you created the glass with a defect.

So you're saying that if glass is breakable, it's the glass sculptor's fault? To me, that an odd assessment, and wrong.

[Irish]

Alright, I'll buy your argument that God didn't create the world perfect. In Genesis it says that creation was "good" not perfect. Therefore it's possible for sin to enter the world through free will. But then you're presented with a different problem.
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God is omniscient and knows even the interweaving of us. He knew that sin would enter the world through the free will he created and the imperfection of his creation. That means that he knew the suffering and pestilence we would have to endure through no fault of our own. It was God who made us imperfect. We were doomed to fall into sin because that is the way he designed us. That we must die in agony for thousands upon thousands of years. To claw our way through existence on a planet he designed to kill us. To pump our bodies with living bacteria (that he created) which disease us. The lion to hunt us, the volcano to burn us alive, and the floods to drown millions. All that we may glorify him? God's creation wasn't just imperfect, it was designed to house a kingdom of suffering. All the horrible ways we can die to his creation. Why worship that?

[jimwalton]

> he created and the imperfection of his creation.

You snuck that in, but I don't buy it. I could manufacture an awesome car, but if someone hits it and wrecks it, that doesn't mean my design was flawed. Are you saying that if glass is breakable, it's the glass sculptor's fault? To me, that's an odd assessment, and wrong. It is impossible to create something that is uncreated, or to create something that has no beginning. Anything created is less than God. Since only uncreated, eternal divine beings are invulnerable to error, anything created is less than an uncreated, eternal divine being. That doesn't imply God created it imperfect.

> That means that he knew the suffering and pestilence we would have to endure through no fault of our own.

Whoa, what do you mean "through no fault of our own"? In the Bible, all the suffering and pestilence is our fault. We are the ones who brought sin into the world.

> It was God who made us imperfect.

Whoa, God didn't make us imperfect. As created beings, we were vulnerable to breakage, just like the crystal. But vulnerability doesn't mean imperfect. Anything that's not unbreakable can be broken. It's not an assessment of the creator of it but rather of the nature of the created thing. If we're not divine, we're breakable. There's no other choice, and it's not a design flaw. God can't create something that is uncreated.

> We were doomed to fall into sin because that is the way he designed us.

Whoa, not so. We are doomed to sin because of our dooming choices. If I buy a Lamborghini and drive it over a cliff, is that the manufacturer's fault? Obviously not.

> To claw our way through existence on a planet he designed to kill us.

Whoa, where are you GETTING this stuff???? This is incorrect also. Where is this coming from? He designed the planet to kill us? There is no sense in which this is true. None at all. If you know of a Bible text that tells this, I'll be more than glad to read it.

> To pump our bodies with living bacteria (that he created) which disease us.

Bacteria are part of what evolved. Are you saying God deliberately created this just to make our lives miserable? You are certainly aware of beneficial bacteria. You are certainly aware of the mutational behavior of bacteria. Wow, your perspective is making me shake my head in wonder.

> The lion to hunt us

Lion are carnivore, yes, but Genesis 9.5 states that if lions hunt people they should be killed.

> the volcano to burn us alive

Volcanoes serve a beneficial purpose on the planet. They relieve pressure from Earth's interior and to create beneficial changes to the landscape and the atmosphere.

> and the floods to drown millions

So you're claiming that God makes every flood happen because he delights in killing us off?

> All that we may glorify him?

Whoa, whoa. You're thinking God sends all these things to make our lives miserable so that we glorify him??? We need to talk more. These are pretty wild thoughts.

> God's creation wasn't just imperfect, it was designed to house a kingdom of suffering.

Whoa, whoa. It was DESIGNED to produce suffering? This is not a biblical concept either. Somewhere along the way you have been either atrociously misinformed or your thoughts have taken you far askew. We need to talk.

> All the horrible ways we can die to his creation. Why worship that?

God didn't create death, and he didn't create horrible death. We need to talk.

[Russel's Tea Party]

> Jude 6 verifies for us that spirit beings have will

Does this imply that the souls of the dead would have a chance to convert in the afterlife?

[jimwalton]

Good question, but no, it doesn't imply that. The spirit beings Jude is talking about are not the souls of the dead, but spirit beings that were created as spirit beings and always were spirit beings, never humans.