Board index ‹ Specific Bible verses, texts, and passages ‹ Habakkuk

[1990]

Hey, fellow christian here from reformed theological perspective. I am trying to wrap my head around open theist position and molinism, or something close to it: a God knows the future but we have a free will doctrine, in dealing with Habakkuk 1.

Habakkuk seems really distressed at the sin, injustice, and violence before him with justice going unpunished. The Lord's reply is "wonder and be astounded, for God is doing a work in your days that you would not believe if he told. Behold, God is raising up the Chaldeans."

These are not Godly people, these are savages from an enemy nation. So how exactly is God raising them up for judgement against his people within open theism or molism that we are wondering and beholding in a free will context? Thanks.

[jimwalton]

Great question. Obviously, Habakkuk doesn't explain and so we are left to interpret (and therefore some guesswork is involved).

If we look at how the term is used elsewhere in the Bible, it may give us some clues.

1 Kings 15.4 tells us God was "raising up" a godly successor to the evil Abijah. It seems to be indicating that God was showing His favor by continuing the Davidic line despite Abijah's sins. To me, it doesn't seem to be saying that God ordained the birth of the boy, chose him, or placed him in line to the throne—none of those specific, active interferences. The clues, to me, are the references to David and that YHWH would not fail to keep His promises to him. The idea I get from the text is that the language of "raising up" indicates God's faithfulness, not his direct action.

The point of the Torah is a covenant agreement between the suzerain (God) and His vassal (Israel). Israel is serving as host to the presence of YHWH in the world. The point of the Torah is to establish a reputation for YHWH as the patron of order. If Israel would maintain YHWH's functional order, they will enhance His reputation as a competent, wise, and just administration of the world order.

Therefore, if Israel characterizes itself by order, wisdom, and justice, God will be pleased with the way the nation reflects on Him and will give them blessing and prosperity so that everyone can see that He is pleased. On the other hand, if Israel characterized itself by disorder and injustice (as they did here in the sin of Judah), YHWH will demonstrate His own commitment to wisdom, order, and justice by inflicting judgment on them so that everyone can see He is angry, and thus preserve His reputation.

If we take these same ideas to Habakkuk, what "raising up" the Chaldeans means is that God is faithful to his covenant promises, both blessings and curses. God is preserving His reputation by demonstrating His commitment to wisdom, order, and justice by inflicting judgment on them. He does this by withdrawing His hand of protection (Lam. 2.3; Ps. 74.11; 1 Sam. 16.14; Mt. 23.37). God had protected Jerusalem from the Assyrians (2 Chr. 32); He would not do so from the Chaldeans. The idea I get from the text is that the language of "raising up" indicates God's faithfulness to His covenant curses because of Judah's sin and his consequent withdrawal of protection, not His direct action in creating the Babylonian horde and their ruthless and impetuous ways.

I'll be curious to read your response.

[1990]

Mechanically how would Gods protection work concerning free will choices. There has got to be some active influence going on. 2 Kings 6:17-20 Matthew 26:53. There are many thousands of spiritual beings that are invisible to us. If they are of God then they gladly serve his will. If they are of the devil then they are enslaved and have an enslaved will. 2 Peter 2:4.

So when God is faithful to his covenant curses, how exactly does that mechanically play out given the biblical reality of supernatural and spirit influencing. Could the Chaldeans freely choose not to bring israel into captivity. And if its just based on free will and foreknowledge, what are the angels doing. Also you have the issue of if God knows the future, how is anyone truly free to choose. As soon as God knows the future, one cannot choose anything else without violating Gods knowledge of future events.

Chapter 2 of Habakkuk has the theme of the bible in it, the righteous shall live by faith and he has his remnant people in the midst of judgement. Woe to the chaldeans is expressed even though God is using them to proclaim his judgement, he is still judging them and going to judge them as well. 1 Kings 19:18 God says he has reserved a remnant that have not bowed a knee to baal. Was that based on free will or God being the potter and his remnant being the clay.

[jimwalton]

> Mechanically how would Gods protection work concerning free will choices.

God's protection is simply a macro-movement that has no effect on the free-will choices of the people. For instance, suppose I come across an ant hill, and I drive a large piece of sheet steel around the hill to protect it from a coming storm. How have I affected the free will of the ants? Not at all. They'll keep doing what they do. Most may not even be aware that I've done anything. Now suppose I come back in a month and removed the protection. It still has no effect on their free will. They do what they choose to do.

> There has got to be some active influence going on.

Why does there HAVE to be?

> 2 Kings 6:17-20; Mt. 26.53. There are many thousands of spiritual beings that are invisible to us

Of course there are. Can't deny the Scripture. But there is no indication those forces abrogate our free will. We know very little about these beings. Seraphim seem to always be in the presence of God (Isa. 6)—we know close to nothing about them. Cherubim seem to flank the throne of God, but they did appear on Earth once to guard the way to the garden (Gn. 3). Angels are messengers, and seemingly nothing more. We only know about one archangel (Michael), and he seems to do battle with other spiritual forces. We know about Satan, but we don't know what kind of spiritual being he is. And there are demons, but we don't know much about what kind of being they are, either. They seem to be more forces of chaos than of evil. Then we have the fallen angels of Jude 6, but we know nothing more about them.

So we don't know of ANY of these "creatures" that interfere with our free will.

> If they are of the devil then they are enslaved and have an enslaved will. 2 Peter 2:4.

Well, the text doesn't say anything about enslaved. Jude 6 would indicate they use their free will.

> So when God is faithful to his covenant curses, how exactly does that mechanically play out given the biblical reality of supernatural and spirit influencing.

I don't think it has anything to do with "spirit influencing." God judges the wicked, and that is both His right and His business.

> Could the Chaldeans freely choose not to bring israel into captivity.

Technically, yes. They could have ignored Israel as they ignored other territories, but that would have been stupid. Israel was in the prime location of the ancient word at the crossroads of three continents with a large body of fresh water. But they could have chosen not to conquer Israel. They also could have chosen to kill more than they did. Just as we see with Pharaoh (in Exodus) and with Judas (in the Gospels), their behavior played right into God's hands, but they made their own decisions and they were accountable for them. In Mt. 27.4, Judas admits that he made a bad choice. Notice in John 13.2 that the devil "prompted" Judas; he didn't force him. Judas had a choice. As did Pharaoh. As did the Chaldeans.

> And if its just based on free will and foreknowledge, what are the angels doing.

We know almost nothing about the angels. There are obvious angels who rebelled (Jude 6) and angels who didn't, so they have free will. We don't have a very good understanding of how that all works because we're told close to nothing about them.

> Also you have the issue of if God knows the future, how is anyone truly free to choose.

Knowledge is not causative. Because I know something doesn't make anything happen, and never can. Only power is causative. Suppose you and I were good friends, and I knew you loved chocolate, and every time we go somewhere you order a chocolate dessert. Every time. My knowing that never causes you to order chocolate, or to order something else. But supposing I was 100 times smarter than I am now. Nothing changes—my knowledge of you causes nothing in you. Knowledge isn't causative. But suppose I'm omniscient? No different. Knowledge isn't causative, knowledge isn't determinative.

If God is timeless, and can see all things as present, then his knowledge is a matter of seeing, not of causing. Free will is still not only operative but legitimate and even necessary, and God's knowledge is complete.

It's not a matter of prediction (God knows the future), but only that of seeing. Let's go back to the ice cream shop. Suppose you and I are there again, but this time I was able to move forward in time 10 minutes and see what kind of dessert you ordered. I wouldn't know because I know you, or because I made it happen, but instead because I saw it. My knowledge wouldn't cause you to make your choice, nor would it predict it. It's only knowledge because I have seen, and it has no other dynamics to it with reference to your free will. God's timelessness and omniscience is like that. He can see, but His knowledge neither causes nor predicts.

The flaw here in thinking of it as "knowing the future" is in perceiving God in eternity past rolling out time like a carpet, seeing every moment unfold, and therefore determining it. But this picture is not the reality. Instead our lives are dynamic, filled with choices and the ability to reason. God in His timelessness is able to look at it from the side, seeing all from the perspective of "present," and therefore His knowledge neither causes nor predicts. He didn't determine it in eternity past. He watches it happen in real time from a position of present timelessness.

You make it seem like God designed it all and therefore predicted and determined it all, and is therefore "how is anyone truly free to choose?" But this is not the biblical picture. His knowledge is all-seeing, but is not causative. He hasn't predicted, He observes. We are free agents who are responsible for every decision we make, as you were making valid choices of dessert in the ice cream shop.

> the righteous shall live by faith and he has his remnant people in the midst of judgement.

God doesn't have to interfere with free will to preserve a remnant. It was the habit of the Chaldeans to spare the best and the brightest to serve the king, and also to take healthy captives to serve their people. They played right into God's hands.

> 1 Kings 19:18

God can choose to protect some of his people and not have to resort to interfering with free will. In a time of war they can find great hiding places, manage to escape, or even appear dead when they are not. In a time of idolatry, one can always find some who will stay true. When God says He has "reserved" some in Israel, there's no reason to think God is hand-picking certain individuals for protection while letting others fall into apostasy. Instead, it means that He was reassuring Elijah that He knew of many who had not fallen into idolatry, so that we are not to think salvation history hung on the shoulders of Elijah alone. God's work was far bigger than Elijah, and there were many who were still faithful to YHWH in a country run amok.