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[Ratfink]

Two other thoughts, since morphe theou is so important.

Paul does claim Christ is the eikon image of God in 2 Cor 4:4. And clearly Paul has last/new Adam christology at significant places in his epistles(Romans 5, 1 Cor 15).

Another thought is that in Romans 1:18-32, Paul describes the fallen state of man. In 22-23 he says, "Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles."

People(Adam) have exchanged the glory of God for a counterfeit and have

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever!"

I think a case can be made that the glory Adam gave up was the glory God gave to him(cf. Psalm 8:6). And in abandoning that glory, he became useless and sinful. He became obedient to creation rather than to the Creator.

So again I think we have Christ as the glorious true Adam(the one who never disobeyed God) who chooses to still take on Adam's grief. This is not incarnation but the emptying of a king to the place of a slave.

[jimwalton]

I'm agree with most of it, but you missed something. So close, but so far.

1. Jesus preexisted in eternity past
- Micah 5.2, fulfilled in the incarnation of Christ (Matt. 2)
- Colossians 1.15, 17
- Romans 8.3
- Galatians 4.4
- Revelation 22.13
- John 1.15; 17.5
- 1 John 1.1-2

2. Jesus voluntarily took on human flesh
- Phil. 2.7-8
- Heb. 2.14, 17

I also don't like the sentence "He became obedient to creation rather than to the Creator." Jesus was always obedient to the Creator.

[Tiger]

Ok, I disagree with almost everything you said.

God's words are immutable, inflexible and everlasting. What he said in the Old Testament is still alive and active today. Most Christians tend to forget that. They ignore the fundamental of the Old Testament and base their belief only on the New Testament (mostly Paul's teachings).

So you HAVE to understand that the Old Testament is the root of everything. Yahweh said that no one is his equal. That means no one has the ability to do what he had done, doing or going to do. He is one of the kind. There is no one equal to him in strength, power, wisdom, etc.. That along should be enough for me not to continue.

Even Jesus taught that the most important commandment was this 'Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is one: and you shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."

Jeremiah 10:10 "But Yahweh is the true God; he is the living God, and an everlasting King...."

Jesus said that the Father(YHWH) is the only true God: "his is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God..."

Paul said that the Father(YHWH) is the one God: "yet for us there is but one God, the Father...."

Yahweh is one. That means no one is equal to, can be compare to or like Yahweh. However, you consistently say that Jesus is equal to YHWH. How can you go against the most important commandment? Jesus also said that the Father is greater than he is. Greater in what? If they are equal, then how can one be greater than the other?

> without dividing the divine essence

Even you said that they can not get divided in their divine essence. So, how can one be greater and equal in their divine essence? Are you going to say "Jesus came as a human and that make him less". Less in what?!?

If Yahweh is the one true God, then who else can be the true God? If Yahweh is the living God, then who else is the living God? I never said that Jesus is not a god. Angels were called god. Satan was called a god. Moses was make into like a God. Man was called a god. etc...

All I am saying that Yahweh(the Father) is the true, living God. You should worship him only, serve him only, praise him only as the true God. When you say that Jesus is equal to Yahweh, then you are saying that Jesus is also equal as God. That, my friend, goes against the very nature of God.

Why must I go on? If you don't follow the teachings, how can you understand what I'm saying? You base your belief on the doctrine of the Trinity. Where do you think that came from? From God? The doctrine of the Trinity goes against the very essential of the bible.

[jimwalton]

> God's words are immutable, inflexible and everlasting. What he said in the Old Testament is still alive and active today.

I agree.

> Most Christians tend to forget that. They ignore the fundamental of the Old Testament and base their belief only on the New Testament (mostly Paul's teachings).

Well, then, they're wrong. The OT is still valid, and we still recognize it as the inspired word of God.

> So you HAVE to understand that the Old Testament is the root of everything.

I agree.

> Yahweh said that no one is his equal. That means no one has the ability to do what he had done, doing or going to do. He is one of the kind. There is no one equal to him in strength, power, wisdom, etc.

I agree.

> Even Jesus taught that the most important commandment was this 'Hear, Israel...

I agree.

> Jesus said that the Father(YHWH) is the only true God

I agree.

> Paul said that the Father(YHWH) is the one God: "yet for us there is but one God, the Father...."

I agree, but don't exclude the second half of the verse.

> Yahweh is one. That means no one is equal to, can be compare to or like Yahweh

I agree.

> you consistently say that Jesus is equal to YHWH. How can you go against the most important commandment?

This is correct. I do say this, because the Bible says it. It doesn't go against the commandment, but is part of it. Jesus and the Father are a unified essence. Jesus and the Father are one, not two. For instance, do this math problem: 1 infinity + 1 infinity = ? The answer is one infinity.

> how can one be greater and equal in their divine essence?

In the Bible, the Trinity distinguishes between the principle of divine action and the subject of divine action. The principle of all divine action is the one undivided divine essence, but the subject of divine action is either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. The Father can send the Son according to his power, and the Son can be incarnated according to his nature without dividing the divine essence.

> If Yahweh is the one true God, then who else can be the true God? If Yahweh is the living God, then who else is the living God?

No one. Jesus and YHWH are one; Jesus is not an "else".

> I never said that Jesus is not a god

John 1 and Hebrews 1 speak strongly and decisively about this issue. John 1.1 is emphatic when it says, "And the Word was God." It cannot be interpreted as "And the Word was a god."

> When you say that Jesus is equal to Yahweh, then you are saying that Jesus is also equal as God. That, my friend, goes against the very nature of God.

Jesus himself said this in John 10.30. It was a clear declaration of divinity. The Pharisees even understood it as such (Jn. 10.33). Notice that Jesus never backed off, or scrambled to let them know they had misunderstood. There was no misunderstanding. Jesus is equal to God.

> The doctrine of the Trinity goes against the very essential of the bible.

This has been dealt with over and over through church history. the doctrine of the Trinity is as paramount in the Bible as monotheism.

[Ratfink]

> I also don't like the sentence "He became obedient to creation rather than to the Creator." Jesus was always obedient to the Creator.

Adam became obedient to creation. The Son, Jesus, never was. And yet the Son suffered the fate of Adam.

Micah describes God's plan to send forth His Son. This is not a literal pre-existence of the person Jesus. Jews would of had no concept of that. In Jeremiah 1:5 was Jeremiah a literal person God could know and consecrate prior to his conception? No. God planned on making him a prophet.

Matthew never uses the virgin birth to claim Jesus is the incarnation of YHWH. His name, as in the time of Isaiah, is a sign that God is with His people in a moment of crisis. Isaiah was speaking for king Hezekiah then and Matthew is using the type to speak of the man king Jesus now.

> Colossians 1.15, 17 Romans 8.3 Galatians 4.4 Revelation 22.13 John 1.15; 17.5 1 John 1.1-2

Christ existed as the Word/Wisdom of God from creation. Word/Wisdom were never thought of as literal persons alongside God. Neither did Paul, though perhaps John. The same power by which God made the world was incarnate as the man Jesus.

But whether Paul believed Jesus existed as a literal person prior to his conception, my point is only that Philippians 2 is not using such Wisdom imagery. Wisdom imagery is the only imagery available to Paul with which to posit Jesus as a kind of incarnation of God's wisdom. He is not using it here.

[jimwalton]

> Adam became obedient to creation.

Where do you get this? You will be hard pressed to justify this from Scripture, since the Bible says no such thing.

You can only deny the pre-existence of Christ before the incarnation by changing the meaning of words and the obvious intent of the authors of the Bible. When the Bible says God sent his Son into the world, it means nothing less than that Jesus was already in existence to be sent. All the verses I listed explicitly state that Jesus was in existence from eternity past, in the beginning, from the beginning. Word/Wisdom is one way the Bible expresses it, but not the only way.

As far as Philippians 2, Paul is obviously talking about the historical Jesus, pre-existent with God before incarnation, and willfully emptying himself to come to earth in human form.

[Tiger]

> Jesus and YHWH are one

You agreed that Yahweh's words are unchangeable. Great! However, you are still saying that Yahweh and Jesus is equal. How can you still say that? Was Yahweh lying? Was Yahweh telling a joke? People were still believe in that joke and after hundreds of years, Yahweh said "Psych!!! I was pulling your legs. There is someone equal to me and I'm going to send him down to earth and die"? Or did Yahweh say, "I was telling half of the true when I say 'No one is my equal'. Someone is my equal but not equal to me in ranks."?

Are you serious? YHWH said that he alone created the universe. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and he who formed you from the womb: "I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who alone stretches out the heavens; who spreads out the earth by myself;"
But yet, you are saying YHWH and Jesus created the universe. Do you see that you are contradicting the bible? Your belief is opposing the word of God?

[jimwalton]

> you are still saying that Yahweh and Jesus is equal. How can you still say that? Was Yahweh lying?

Of course YHWH was not lying. He is incapable of it. YHWH and Jesus are equal because it has always been that way from the beginning. God is one essence in 3 persons. There is no ranking in the Trinity, but there is distinction of divine action. Each of the persons of the Trinity has divine actions unique to their person, but they are all equal in rank because they are of one essence.

> Isaiah 44.24

I am not contradicting the Bible, assuming we are giving consideration to the whole word of God, and not just part of it.

John 1.3: "Through [Jesus] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Jesus was the agent of creation—by means of him as the intermediate agent in the work of creation.

Hebrews 1.2: "but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe." Again, stressing agency. Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent with YHWH in creation—two persons of the Trinity acting with the united power of their singular essence.

Colossians 1.16: "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him." Jesus Christ is the sphere of activity in which all of creation happened. It is a Christo-centric universe we live in. The universe was designed according to the blueprint of God’s purpose in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the sphere, the agent, and the center of all creation.

1 Corinthians 8.6: "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." Jesus is the intermediate agent in creation. YHWH did not create alone; Jesus did not create alone. But as a singular essence of omnipotence they created the world in joint action.

I trust this shows you that I am diligently following the Bible, not contradicting it, ignoring it, or opposing it.

[Tiger]

> He is incapable of it. YHWH and Jesus are equal because it has always been that way from the beginning.

Where are you keep getting the equal from? If there is someone equal to Yahweh from the beginning, why he didn't say it? I have shown you many of times where the bible says that there is no one like Yahweh.

2 Samuel 7:22 "Therefore you are great, Yahweh God. For there is none like you, neither is there any God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears."

2 Chronicles 6:14 "and he said, "Yahweh, the God of Israel, there is no God like you, in heaven, or on earth; ..."

Psalm 71:19 "Your righteousness also, God, reaches to the heavens; you have done great things. God, who is like you?"

There is no one like YHWH. NO ONE can be equal to him in his work, wisdom, righteousness, etc.. So why are you keep on saying that there is someone equal to YHWH?

Yes, we must read the bible as a whole. Even if Jesus EXPLICITLY said that he is God, that doesn't make him to be equal to YHWH. Do you know why? That because Yahweh said that no one is his equal.

> Jesus was the agent of creation—by means of him as the intermediate agent in the work of creation.

I have shown you where Yahweh said that he alone created the universe, by himself he created the heavens. Since we know that Yahweh created the universe by himself, surely Jesus didn't partake in the creation.

Hebrews 11:3 "By faith, we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which are visible." The universe was created by the word of God. WORD, in Hebrews 11:3, is rhéma in Greek. Rhéma means word, saying, statement (command).

In Genesis, God SPOKE and it was done.

Jeremiah 10:12 "He has made the earth by his power, he has established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding has he stretched out the heavens:"

Yahweh made the earth by HIS power, established the world by HIS wisdom, stretched out the heavens by HIS understanding.
If you are saying that Jesus is the agent of God's creation, then you are saying that Jesus is Yahweh's wisdom, understanding, power, etc.

In Proverbs 8, it says that Wisdom was God first creation. In that case, you are saying Jesus was God first creation.

You believe that God is one. GREAT!!! Even demons believe in that. But no matter how you say it, the Trinity still contradict the bible. There is no equality, there is no comparison, there is no godhead, there is no 3 in 1, there is no sharing... there is only ONE Yahweh, ONE Father, ONE true God, ONE living God and ONE Creator.

[jimwalton]

> Where are you keep getting the equal from?

I've already told you, but I'll say it again. In John 10.30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one." It is a clear statement of deity. Jesus and the Father share the same nature. Then there's Hebrews 1.3, which tells us the Son is the exact representation of God's being. There's also Colossians 1.15, where Jesus is the image of the invisible God. The use of that term ascribes full deity to Jesus. There's John 1.1, that says clearly the Word (who is Jesus) was God.

> Even if Jesus EXPLICITLY said that he is God, that doesn't make him to be equal to YHWH. Do you know why? That because Yahweh said that no one is his equal.

"If Jesus were God, he's still not God's equal." Ya lost me.

> I have shown you where Yahweh said that he alone created the universe, by himself he created the heavens.

But that means you're throwing away all the verses that say Jesus was the agent of creation: John 1.3; Hebrews 1.2; Col. 1.16; 1 Cor. 8.6.

> Heb. 11.3...[creation] by the Word of of God.

Yes, yes, I agree fully. The universe was formed at the utterance of God. That's what it says, and I believe what it says. That doesn't exclude a divine agent involved in the process, as other verses clearly teach.

> Jesus is Yahweh's wisdom

There is a sense in which this is very true. Thanks for bringing it out.

> Proverbs 8

The Lady Wisdom of Proverbs 8 is not Jesus, but the voice of the Lord, the revelation of God, and the call to all creation to worship the true God. All creation shows forth the glory of God, and wisdom tells us this is so.

> the Trinity still contradicts the bible

From the beginning of the church, when Jesus was on earth, Christians recognized the truth of the Trinity, and the teaching of it in incorporated throughout the entire New Testament.