Board index ‹ Christmas

[Jarold]

> Sure, maybe the trees and wreaths traditions came from solstice celebrations. And very possibly they were integrated into Christmas celebrations in the 1500s. I'm fine with that. But that's not an origins story for Christmas; it's a blending of two traditions many centuries later.

You might have your timeline off here. The solstice celebrations happened before christ. Before the 1500s.

> As far as we know, Christianity came to the Scandinavian countries in the 8th-12th centuries.

Sure. But the twelve days also come from scandinavian countries. But no matter what country, many of them were already celebrating solstice. Many of them, when they became more an more christian didn't stop celebrating solstice and start celebrating xmas. They incorporate their traditions.

If you can find me a culture that didn't celebrate solstice in late december, but then started celebrating xmas when that started, then I would agree with you that in those cultures, xmas was purely a christian thing. But everywhere else, solstice was celebrated, and christ stuff was added to it and it became what we know today as xmas. This is why there are twelve days, this is why there's yule logs, this is why there are xmas trees and xmas wreaths.

[jimwalton]

> You might have your timeline off here. The solstice celebrations happened before christ. Before the 1500s.

Oh my goodness. I have said no less than 4 times that solstice celebrations happened before Christ, but the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with them.

* On October 20, I wrote, "There is no hint from actual ancient records that [Christmas] was designed to coincide with the winter solstice. (That suggestion doesn't appear until the 12th century.) ... So we don't know when Jesus was born. But it's not likely that Christianity co-oped the winter solstice celebration and called it Christmas.
* On October 21st I wrote, "The Romans celebrated the winter solstice, but there's no evidence in the first several centuries of Christianity that Christmas was even celebrated, let alone that it was celebrated at the winter solstice. ... THEREFORE, I conclude that Christmas isn't a rebranded winter solstice celebration. Christianity did not co-opt the winter solstice celebration and call it Christmas, as you claim."
* On October 23, you said the winter solstice existed before Christ, and I agree. I said, "Of course the winter solstice celebration existed before Christ. But the celebration of Christmas has nothing to do with that, and it has nothing to do with the celebration of Christmas. "
* On October 24, I reiterated that the winter solstice celebration existed before Christ, and that the celebration of Christmas had nothing to do with that.

Now you're arguing that my "timeline [is] off here. The solstice celebrations happened before Christ. Before the 1500s."

I KNOW they did. We've covered this ground. But the solstice celebrations have nothing to do with the recognition of Christmas or Christ's birth.

> Sure. But the twelve days also come from scandinavian countries.

So what? The "12 days of Christmas" has nothing to do with the Bible, early Christmas celebrations, or the birth of Jesus. It was a later addition that has nothing to do with original practices, sources, or even the winter solstice!

> If you can find me a culture that didn't celebrate solstice in late december, but then started celebrating xmas when that started, then I would agree with you that in those cultures, xmas was purely a christian thing.

Oh my goodness. All of the old cultures celebrated the solstice, but that has nothing to do with Christmas. The celebration of Christmas has no relation to the winter solstice. None. Zippo. Zilch. There is no connection.

> But everywhere else, solstice was celebrated, and christ stuff was added to it and it became what we know today as xmas.

This is untrue, as I have more-than-adequately shown. I have proven to you from historical records that the "Christ stuff" was NOT added to the solstice celebration. You can't just make stuff up.

> This is why there are twelve days, this is why there's yule logs, this is why there are xmas trees and xmas wreaths.

Oh my goodness. The 12 days, yule logs, trees, and wreaths came CENTURIES later. These things were added to the Christmas celebration in the mid-2nd millennium.