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[Darth Vader]

I have been thinking about why most conversations or even debates don't truly change peoples minds most of the time.

I think that is partially caused by religious people memorizing verses or chapters, and constantly quoting them without truly interacting with the person they are talking to. Then the Atheist wants to understand what the the credibility is for those quotes/claims. Don't get me wrong there are very lame atheists that give atheism a bad name. I think instead of using the bible for quotes religious people would need to actually say why the bible is divine in the first place. Because if you can't convince people that the bible is divine agnostics, and atheists won't think it is important.

So the question is: how do religious people know the bible is completely divine without any room for other explanations besides god's power or decisions?

that is my question that I would like to ask you.

And I would like to ask you how have you been?

[jimwalton]

I'm glad to hear you're feeling better, at least a little bit. Life can be so stinking difficult and lousy sometimes, and then at other times it is fun, happy, and loving. It just sucks when it stinks.

> I have been thinking about why most conversations or even debates don't truly change peoples minds most of the time.

I picked up an old book called "Getting Through to People," by Jesse Nirenberg (1963) on the art of persuasion. In it he indicates that most people's positions are more grounded in emotions than logic, and that even most of what we accept as logical has more to do with viscera than reason. We are guilty of self-absorption, wishful hearing, unwarranted assumptions, emotional bias, and the power of desires. He said that "emotions simply are not responsive to reason. In fact, reason is likely to intensify an emotion," increasing tension and resistance to logic.

Pretty interesting stuff. It sounds like he's saying people are prone to believe what they want to believe, and it takes some kind of jolt, either emotional or logical, to dislodge them from a position they hold.

> I think that is partially caused by religious people memorizing verses or chapters, and constantly quoting them without truly interacting with the person they are talking to.

I agree with you, but it's not just religious people. Anyone—hey, even atheists—, when the come to a position, quote the supporting thoughts/quotes/sources for their position and don't think as deeply about it any more. After a period of disequilibrium (not knowing what to think or do), when one arrives at equilibrium, one tends to settle into it and "cease the battle," at least temporarily, unless something else knocks them off of it. In all of us, there is quite a bit of resistance to change. It takes a lot to push someone out of their space of intellectual congruence—the place where they have arrived where things sort of make sense to them and fit.

> how do religious people know the bible is completely divine without any room for other explanations besides god's power or decisions?

My conclusion that the Bible is divine is founded on the evidences I see. Evidences will never take me to "completely divine," but evidences convince me of the truth of the claims, and "completely divine" is the logical outcome.

OK, so just being honest, and not engaging in a debate, here's where my mind honestly goes. These may be steps, sort of.

So I pick up a Bible and start to read. Most people suggest starting with the New Testament, so I start to read. Right away I can tell I've come into the middle of a story (the genealogies of Matthew ending at Jesus),but that's OK. It's obvious this part of the story is about Jesus. From the writing I can tell he's being portrayed as more than special. There's something about Him that is not considered human. How can these things be? That's what I have to start to wrestle with. His teaching strikes me as wise, caring, and true. Almost everything He says, I'm like, "Yeah, that's what it's like." Or, "He's right about that." He's a wise, loving man, and a good teacher.

Then Matthew ups the ante. This man has special powers. It's not portrayed as magic tricks, conjuring, or even some kind of spiritual power present in him. Matthew makes Jesus seem like he's the one who made all this and has perfect and easy control over it. Well, where does THAT come from, and how is it possible? Nobody can do that, or can he?

By the time we get to the end of John (three books later), we find that it is being claimed that Jesus is actually God in the flesh. OK, really? Now I have to wrestle with the existence of God and to consider the logical and empirical evidences for God. So Ieave the reading and dip into philosophy, logic, science and theology. I consider the cosmological, ontological, teleological, axiological, and scientific evidences for theism, and I'm convinced. The arguments are substantial and weighty, and make far more sense to me than anything the atheist, scientific naturalist, or deist positions offer.

Given theism, then, I dive into comparative religions. Hinduism doesn't make sense to me. Its philosophies don't square with reality. Islam falls short also; its transcendent god not interested in human relationship is too cold, remote, and obscure to strike a chord with me.

Christianity fills more of the spaces. Evil is real, but so is love and happiness. Humanity is depraved but noble, capable but a screw-up, intelligent and stupid, noble and cruel. But now I have to deal with the text. What about all these miracles?

Well, if there is a god (theism), what's the big deal of miracles? He made it all, He's sovereign over it, and He can override or manipulate it. There's nothing in science that negates the possibility of miracles. While some of them are far-fetched, if there is God, doesn't that open the door to even "far-fetched"?

Back to the Bible. Reading about this God who loves, but doesn't put up with monkey business. if you join His team, many benefits. If you cross Him, you're messing with Mama Bear. It will not go well with you. I read that this God is involved in history, and the history the Bible tells is plenty accurate (though most of the Bible gives theological interpretations of historical events, but I'm OK with that. it's what I would expect at this point). I read in all these stories things that are very true to life, to humanity, and to reality. I'm generally favorable with what I'm reading, though some things trouble me.

All in all, though, I'm becoming convinced by the logic and evidence that this Book speaks the truth.

Now I start to think about it on another level: But is it from God? It says it is (duh, of course it does). What would make me think so?

* I would expect that a real God would want to reveal Himself to me and talk to me.
* I would expect that a real God would be involved in history.
* I would expect that a real God wouldn't lie to me about stuff.
* I would expect that a real God could manipulate nature.
* I would expect that a real God could transcend eras, cultures, languages, social status, economic level, intellectual levels, etc.
* I would expect that a real God could write something down for all to read and benefit from.
*I would expect that a real God could make his writing, though couched in a language, culture, and era, applicable for all no matter who, where, and when they are.

This is what I see in the Bible.

Then on top of that I hear numerous—hundreds, if not thousands—people talk about when the read the Bible, it's like a force awakening in them, like truth, like power, like love. I hear them talk about how the Bible is like this living, breathing, entity that lights a fire in them. I am one of those who has experienced the Bible in this way. This is no ordinary book. It's not a religious book, or a historical one. There is something different, something supernaturally powerful, about this text. It's like it opens the windows of knowledge, truth, and understanding. It blows off the roof of inquiry and lets me be free to explore, to know, and to be. Jesus said it: "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Put all of this together, and I through the years have become convinced that the Bible is completely divine. Are there other explanations? There used to be, but not any more. I'm convinced, and I'm settled in my conclusion based on the evidence. It would take an intellectual and emotional tsunami to shake that from me now. After years of pursuit and inquiry, I have become convinced beyond the shadow of a doubt.

> And I would like to ask you how have you been?

I've been well lately. Thanks for asking. I have some trouble sleeping at night, but my health is good, I enjoy my family, I find many joys in life to offset the problems (that never seem to abate, by the way), and I'm happy and content. I'm very troubled by everything that's going on in our country, and I dread this next election cycle and what will be the result in America. There's a lot of violence bubbling, anger, and intolerance, and I fear for what is around the corner, no matter which way the election goes. I also think the international situation is very unstable. The wrong event at the wrong time could set the whole world aflame. It's like we're sitting on a powder keg.

But I'm good. I don't let the fear consume me. There's a lot of beauty and good in the world. I try to focus on what is helpful, work against what is detrimental, and live my life in the balance, trying to breathe deeply, enjoy, appreciate, and love.

How about yourself?