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[Abi]

From my understanding Romans 1:28-32 says that atheists are evil people. How do you interpret this bit of Scripture and do you think people who atheists/not Christian are evil?

[jimwalton]

No, I don't.

And Romans 1.28-32 doesn't say that atheists are evil people. It says they didn't think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, their minds fail in thinking about certain truths, and they do things that displease God and separate themselves from relation with Him.

Depending on the person, of course, some are wicked, some evil, some greedy, some depraved, envious, murderous, malicious, etc. Paul is certainly not saying that all atheists are all of these things. As you see Paul interact with people of various beliefs, he doesn't treat people as if they are evil. What he is saying is that people who have put God out of their lives are not only more susceptible to such behaviors, but also occasionally perpetrators of such things. Without the redeeming power of God in their lives, they don't have an ultimate escape from these pressures, temptations, attitudes, and behaviors.

[Write On]

> Paul...doesn't treat people as if they are evil. What he is saying is that people who have put God out of their lives are not only more susceptible to such behaviors, but also occasionally perpetrators of such things.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you come to this conclusion? I don't think I'm out of line to say that Paul puts this far differently than you are attributing to him:

"among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." - Ephesians 2:3

"as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.'" - Romans 3:10-12

[jimwalton]

There is a difference between positional unrighteousness (our standing before God) and our patterns of behavior. While every baby is sinful and depraved (theological position), every baby is also innocent (behaviorally non-guilty). There are many people who are not believers who are "good" people (they are not theologically good, but they are motivationally and behaviorally good).

When Paul speaks of the evil in non-believers, he is speaking theologically, and only sometimes behaviorally. It's impossible and simply not true that every non-believer is hopelessly murderous, greedy, malicious, slanderers, disobedient to parents, with no sense of love and no ability to understand anything. Paul is not claiming that every non-Christian is always like all of this all the time. Certainly they are theologically depraved and separated from God; certainly they are not righteous in their standing before God. But certainly not are they all uncontrolled beasts.

In Ephesians 2.3, Paul is speaking theologically of people who have not yet turned to Christ: they are dead in their sins (v. 1). They are certainly enslaved by those sins, live according to the flesh, have only obligation to the world and not to the kingdom of God, and stand in a position of separation from God.

In Romans 3.10-12, Paul is again speaking theologically. Sin is universal and thoroughly depraving. All are under its guilt and power. Paul is talking about depravity of soul, not necessary degeneracy in habitual behavior.

[Write On]

Thanks, I think I understand a little more about where you're coming from.

> (they are not theologically good, but they are motivationally and behaviorally good)

Is this a distinction Paul makes, or even a distinction we should be making though? What is "theological evil" if not the state of our hearts and the actions it produces? This is what you said about Ephesians 2:

> They are certainly enslaved by those sins, live according to the flesh, have only obligation to the world and not to the kingdom of God, and stand in a position of separation from God.

This doesn't sound like motivationally or behaviorally good either, so I don't quite understand what you mean. People are still both motivated by and doing sinful things.

> It's impossible and simply not true that every non-believer is hopelessly murderous, greedy, malicious, slanderers, disobedient to parents, with no sense of love and no ability to understand anything.

To be clear, no one is saying that people are as bad as they could possibly be. But on the other end, I don't think we should be downplaying human evilness as only "occasional" and just "more susceptible." It may not make humans maximally evil, but it doesn't make us not evil either, right? It just seems like this is perpetuating the idea that "Well I'm not perfect, but I'm not that bad."

That's not saying there aren't delicate ways to address this topic with non-Christians. And I don't mean to be disrespectful or aggressive or anything, I'm just trying to be straightforward that I don't understand how this isn't misrepresenting Paul and the Bible's view on human nature, even if unintentionally.

[jimwalton]

I don't think you're being disrespectful or aggressive. Not to worry.

> Is this a distinction Paul makes, or even a distinction we should be making though?

Paul recognized that as a non-Christian he was a "good" person (Phil. 3.4-6). He considers that he lived morally (vv. 5-6). He considers that he had honorable motives (v. 6)—though misdirected. When Jesus spoke with the rich young ruler, Jesus as much as admitted that the man had lived a righteous life (Mk. 10.19-20; Lk. 18.21-22).

There is a goodness in the people of the world, but it's not a goodness that leads to or even contributes to salvation.

> What is "theological evil" if not the state of our hearts and the actions it produces?

We are not to think that total depravity means a person's total condition. It's a description of their spiritual condition. Before they come to Christ, there are good people and bad people (Mt. 22.10).

> People are still both motivated by and doing sinful things.

Oh, for sure. Hebrews 11.6 says that without faith it's impossible to please God. Even though they may be good, their heart is separated from the life of God (Eph. 4.18). People have good works, morality, good works, compassion, and humanitarianism, but those don't please God apart from life in Him. Certainly any act of kindness, forgiveness, compassion or morality are good things, and you don't have to be a believer to exhibit those traits. But the only valid approach to God is the atoning blood of Jesus.

> I don't think we should be downplaying human evilness as only "occasional" and just "more susceptible."

Thanks for asking for clarification. I'm not downplaying human evil, but I am saying that just because someone is not a Christian doesn't mean that everything they do is evil. Evil is very real, and some people specialize in it (even some who claim to be in Christ). But I have known many unbelievers who are good and wonderful people. Jesus found traits to credit in the Syrophoenician woman, Nicodemus, the rich young ruler, the centurion, and others. John the Baptist counseled non-believers to be fair and generous with people (Lk. 3.10-14). (To be fair, he also found some religious people to be horrible people, Mt. 3.7-10). Not every unbeliever is evil in their behavior, even though they are always "in sin" rather than "in Christ."

> It just seems like this is perpetuating the idea that "Well I'm not perfect, but I'm not that bad."

This is just an excuse people use to justify themselves.

[Write On]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.

I'm not sure I'm on fully board with all the interpretations of these verses, but I think I can agree with some of the underlying sentiment here, so I'm comfortable leaving it at that.

In any case, I really appreciate seeing your perspective on this and that you took the time to respond. Thanks again