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[Freetos]

> You mean now? At his resurrection, he was different than a physical man. His resurrection body was distinctly different than a human body. As far as we know, he still has that spiritual body (as Paul talks about in 1 Cor. 15.35-54).

This is quite irresolute, if I may say so. The picture of Christ in heaven, is one similar to that of the angels, and any human who, by the grace of God, is given salvation at the judgement seat when Christ returns (which will be very very soon). 1 Cor. 15:50-53 points out that those who are saved will be changed from the body of flesh and blood which we now possess and given immortal life, a body of flesh and spirit. This is an important thing to note.

If we ascribe Divinity to Christ, we are completely contradicting the statement which Paul made to Timothy. "There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the MAN Christ Jesus." 1Tim. 2:5. Before you jump in and propose the extraordinary idea that Christ can be both God and man simultaneously, may I point out that Paul said this to Timothy long AFTER HE ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN. If Christ is part of the Godhead, how can he be a man? Is a man part of the trinity?

You answered

> No

to "Is Christ still learning whilst in heaven?". I will now draw your attention to the last book of the Bible, Revelation 1:1. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM,". Firstly, how could God give it to him if he is very God? Secondly, if he is very God, why does he need to be given the information?

I would also like to mention Matt 24:36; Mark 13:32, however, I already know the argument against it. Trinitarians say that Jesus is 100% man AND 100% God simultaneously, thus allowing him to possess all the characteristics of man (obedience, learning, subjection etc.) yet the also all the characteristics of God (Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence etc.). They thus destroy all meaning of language itself. You cannot simply avoid a simple truth by suggesting the possibility there are two directly contradictory, yet consistent ideas existing together. (I feel I didn't explain this very well).

Example: Imagine a cow standing in a paddock. Imagine you believe it to really be a chicken. It has all the qualities of a cow. It looks like a cow, it acts like a cow, it moos like a cow. Yet you propose the idea that it could simultaneously be a chicken and have all the qualities of a chicken. Supposing I am arguing against you on this, I really can't do much. Consider it from my perspective: If I say, "look, it must be a cow as it does this/says this/looks like this", you will simply say: "Well, yes, of course. I'm not disputing that it is a cow. I simply hold the view that it is a chicken simultaneously." And I'm powerless.

I am supposing, now, that you will bring out the trinitarian's final trump card: "We cannot understand divine mysteries". If you do, I'm afraid I can't help you, as you're simply not Biblical. John 17:3 - "This is life eternal, to know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." Eternal life is dependent on our understanding of the only true God, and Jesus Christ. True, our mortal minds cannot comprehend the eternity and power of God, but what God has revealed to us, we can understand, and are expected to understand. "The LORD our God is ONE Lord." Deut. 6:4; Zech. 14:9; Matt 12:29. His purpose is another thing we are expected to know about - Num. 14:21 - "As truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD."

> In the Bible, death is not a cessation but a transition. The death that Christ died was a physical death in which he, bearing the sins of the world, experienced the wrath of God for our sins, thus "dying" for the sins of the world. But he didn't cease to exist, just as we will not cease to exist.

This is another whole subject, but you make certain false claims - "we will not cease to exist"...? Let me correct you with a few quotes (without going into detail as it is another subject):

Psalm 146:4 - "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

Psalm 49:12-14 - “But man, despite his riches, does not endure; he is like the beasts that perish. This is the fate of those who trust in themselves, and of their followers, who approve their sayings. Selah Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.”

Psalm 49:19 - “he will join the generation of his fathers, who will never see the light of life.”

Isaiah 38:18-19 - “For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness. The living, the living--they praise you, as I am doing today; fathers tell their children about your faithfulness.”

John 3:13 - “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 - “For the living know that they will die, but THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.”

It is clear that death IS a cessation, not a transition. The Bible never talks about a transition to another life after death, UNTIL the resurrection of the dead in which the responsible who have lived will be raised, not everybody.

> The Father gave the son for the sins of the world, and the Son willingly and conjointly volunteered to be given . It was neither a situation of either/or or of simultaneous expression, but the will of the singular divine essence that the Son, as the person of divine action, would lay down his life for the sins of the world (John 10.18). Hebrews 5.7 is a picture of Gethsemane. In Hebrews 9.12, Christ is portrayed as the perfect sacrifice to have accomplished redemption for his followers.

Why did Christ, in the garden of Gethsemane, pray that "Not my will, but Thine be done"? How can 'ONE' God have two separate wills? A god with two personalities is not 'a' god, but many.

One final quote - 1 Corinthians 8:6 - "But to us there is but ONE God, THE FATHER, of whom are all things, and we in him; AND one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

The Father, whom Christ prayed to, is the same entity/person/being to whom we should pray to. Christ is not part of God/the Father. God is the Father or us all, including Jesus Christ. Note also the the conjunction "and" used (the greek word "Kai", clearly meaning 'and/also/in addition to'). Jesus Christ is a separate being to God.

[jimwalton]

> This is quite irresolute, if I may say so.

Not at all. In John 20.19, Jesus's "physical" body was not stopped by walls or locked doors. It appears to claim that he had not come through the door in the normal fashion. Jesus's physicality is different from normal human physicality. He is not subject to the limitations of earthly corporeality. (Contrast with Acts 12.5-11 where an angel opened the prison gates and set Peter free; Jesus did not need either an angel or an open door.) In Luke 24.31 Jesus disappeared from their sight. In Luke 24.36 he suddenly appeared.

> 1 Cor. 15:50-53 points out that those who are saved will be changed from the body of flesh and blood which we now possess and given immortal life, a body of flesh and spirit. This is an important thing to note.

I agree it's important. The new body will also be a type of flesh, but a different kind of flesh than this earthly flesh (15.37-40ff.). The spiritual body that he mentions in 15.44 is a fleshly body animated by the Spirit of God—an imperishable physical body.

> 1 Tim. 2.5.

It was while Jesus was a man that he mediated the sins of men before God (Heb. 8.6; 9.14-15; 12.24). Jesus said that his blood was the new covenant (Lk. 22.20).

> Rev. 1.1

It's no secret that Jesus often taught that he only said what the Father gave him to say. As I said previously, in the Bible, the Trinity distinguishes between the **principle** of divine action and the **subject** of divine action. The principle of all divine action is the one undivided divine essence, but the subject of divine action is either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. The Father can send the Son according to his power, and the Son can be incarnated according to his nature without dividing the divine essence. So Christ is not still learning in heaven.

> "We cannot understand divine mysteries".

I never say this, so I don't appreciate you saying, "you're simply not Biblical."

> "In the Bible, death is not a cessation but a transition"

I could respond to each of your verses, but there are other problems to deal with. Out of one side of your mouth you say "death IS a cessation, not a transition." Out of the other side of your mouth you say that after death we transition to resurrected life. All I'm saying is that there is an afterlife, and death is a transition to it. We don't cease to exist when we die. There is a resurrection, and it will transition us to life after death.

> the resurrection of the dead in which the responsible who have lived will be raised, not everybody.

This isn't scriptural.

- Daniel 12.2 mentions the righteous dead and the wicked all being resurrected, some to life and others to everlasting contempt
- Acts 24.15 is clear as a bell.
- Rev. 20.11-15 speaks of the resurrection of ALL the dead. The emphasis is clearly on universality.

> Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane

It is as I previous said, "the Trinity distinguishes between the **principle** of divine action and the **subject** of divine action. The principle of all divine action is the one undivided divine essence, but the subject of divine action is either Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. The Father can send the Son according to his power, and the Son can be incarnated according to his nature without dividing the divine essence."

> 1 Cor. 8.6

Ditto. Craig Keener says, "Stoics and others used formulas similar to this one (many gods, but one true or supreme God), which Jewish apologists for monotheism naturally exploited. But Paul’s position differs from both the Stoic and the Jewish position. The basic confession of Judaism was that there was one God, who was also the one Lord (Dt. 6.4); Paul portrays both Father and Son as deity here. Some Jewish texts said that God created the world through personified Wisdom; here Paul assigns this same role to Christ (cf. 1 Cor. 1.30)."

Again, the question of the Trinity was argued and resolved millennia ago. Trinitarian doctrine has been repeated affirmed through the ages. You are beating a dead horse. The Church has repeatedly put down Modalism (i.e. Sabellianism, Noetianism and Patripassianism), Tritheism, Arianism, Docetism, Ebionitism, Macedonianism, Adoptionism, and Partialism.

> Jesus Christ is a separate being to God.

Jesus is a separate Person from the Father, but he shares the divine essence and oneness with Him.